Why aren’t binders a regulated medical device?

hooda, thanks for really interesting and thoughtful perspectives. The boundaries and lines of rights and responsibilities of the body, the self and the Other do seem to come up frequently. Shifts in cultural beliefs and ideas, I suppose, and conflicts between different ideologies, reasoning and faith etc.

What women want is MORE information, more research, more awareness.

Definitely!

The problem is that some adults are extremely vulnerable and need protection

Of course. I get that some may need help. But not from me (I am not qualified). The mental health services may need to do a thorough review on how they treat this group. But for me, ultimately, they are adults. They, maybe together with their friends/family need to establish whether they need help or not. And if they do, the treatment should be adequate.

But health care will never be sufficient. I have someone extremely close to me at the moment who is very likely to not make it another year due to delays in chemo during Covid. This is the most wonderful person and I cannot express the extent of the loss to my family. Healthcare at the moment sucks, for everyone.

I don’t have the emotional capability to worry about an adult who wants to get a boob job (male or female) or mastectomy (female).

you want to restrict access to safe alternative and information on how to do it safely

No, anailly. We've said this very clearly. What women want is MORE information, more research, more awareness. the only people that have suggested a 'ban' are those of you determined to convince us that binders are 'perfectly safe'.

And as I posted above, the peer reviewed evidence suggested that custom made binders produced more damage than 'diy' methods.

I really don’t think it is my place to question decisions of other adults. And I am really not inclined to question other’s beyond a theoretical discussion.

The problem is that some adults are extremely vulnerable and need protection.

When I was falsely diagnosed with delusional disorder I attended various charities and CICs providing services to adults suffering from long-term serious mental health issues.

Many of the people attending were experiencing very serious mental health problems that left them extremely vulneable to abuse and exploitation.

Such people would be advised to not make significant life changes whilst so unwell. It is typical for people who are properly supported to be advised not to sell their house, buy a new car, change their job or divorce / marry their partner, whilst experiencing significant mental health problems.

This is an extremely important point as people who are very mentally unwell frequently want something to change and often make very bad decisions whilst very vulnerable.

I have know people to buy 2 cars in one day, give away extremely valuable items to charty shops and make other life changing decisions all whilst suffering from serious mental illness.

Yet whilst attending these allegedly supportive services I encountered many extremely vulnerable people who were very unwell mentally "transitioning", taking hormones and either considering or undergoing surgery.

It is an outrageous situation and children and vulnerable adults need to be protected from actors who do not have their best interests at heart.

Under 18 with supervision can avoid injury, they can get snug fitting binders, not ones that are overly tight, patents will be aware and can set max time limits, education on when it shouldn't be worn (over night or exercising), they can look for signs of discomfort. Be open and communicate, not try to get it banned to stop binding.

Do you actually have a teenager anaily?

I can tell you that there is a large % of these teenagers who have not told their parents that they are doing this. And that they completely ignore the parents already saying that this is dangerous.

What makes you think that these teenagers will listen to their parents on when to wear these devices and do as recommended? They are being told by adults who have no interest outside their own needs, that it is fine. That it is harmless. The message is reinforced by their peers.

I have witnessed this type of discussion.

You magically think that 'being open' will remedy this.

I notice that not once have you mentioned that perhaps society and groups that are pushing this agenda need to stop with the message. You obviously seem to disbelieve the harm that these devices cause.

I really don’t think it is my place to question decisions of other adults. And I am really not inclined to question other’s beyond a theoretical discussion.

Some of you here seem to think we (sorry if I speak for anyone who disagrees) are questioning your right to do what you want. I really don’t. I believe adults can chose to have breast implants, facelifts, bind their breasts or have surgery on their genitalia as they please. I also think they have the right to decline any immunisation including Covid (what is it, 20% risk of dying if over 60 with a health condition?) . It would not be my choices but you do you.

Most women here only question the safeguarding aspect of the marketing of this to children. And the way it seems to try to go behind parents backs to push something we believe is harmful. Children need to be protected from long term or permanent consequences of decisions made by an immature brain.

I will tell my children that they should not make any decisions like binding until they are adults. I also ensure that they are fully immunised. I am a parent, I protect my children. And I believe other children should be protected as well.

Under 18 with supervision can avoid injury, they can get snug fitting binders, not ones that are overly tight, patents will be aware and can set max time limits, education on when it shouldn't be worn (over night or exercising), they can look for signs of discomfort. Be open and communicate, not try to get it banned to stop binding.

@anaily - you said
My body my choice

It is worth noticing this position is the same as the anti-vaxx movement, the people who promote quackery and snake oil over evidence based medicine, the same as people who undertake horrific body modifications and the same as the pro-sex work activists. It also resonates with the extreme batshit end of the “body positive” movement and even the networks of “thinspiration” and self-harming groups on social media and other groups on the dark web.

Of course these things are always complex and I do believe that in general terms our bodies belong to us, they are the only things we ever really truly own, and we should be allowed to do to our bodies what we want to do and not be dictated by others, however…..

Anyone who has not been living under a stone for the last few years will appreciate that the human body is at the centre of multiple discourses, personal and political, regarding power, independence, violations, truth and lack of truth.

Anyone who has been paying attention will also be aware of the rising influence of cults, whether spiritual, political or personal development orientated or simply orientated around dysfunctional power dynamics. Anyone aware of these issues will be aware of soft methods of controlling vulnerable people based on social contagion, peer pressure, altered states of consciousness, isolation from friends and families and the influence of celebrities and online “influencers”.

None of us are every truly alone and not influenced by mainstream media, social media and various other forces. There is no binary opposition of decisions made by an “authentic self” and, on the other hand, decisions influenced by outside forces. These things are incredibly nuanced.

Many of the vulnerable people involved in cults that I research talk of bodily sovereignty / body sovereignty and a search of these words on YouTube will provide sone interesting results.

It is fascinating to me that some of the people who believe they have recovered or awakened their bodily sovereignty are people who are deeply in the thrall of abusive cults.

This is not a new thing. Anti-vaxxers have long trumped themselves as free and awakened and dismiss others contemptuously as “sheeple”, sometimes even as they lie on their death beds.

Possibly the most illuminating comparison is of smokers’ rights campaigners who shout about freedom whilst harming their own lives and the lives of others with smoke. The tobacco industry has long promoted discourses that smoking = rebellion and freedom whereas in fact is it a pernicious addiction and slavery to harmful chemicals.

Just sharing some thoughts.

I also wanted to congratulate the OP on making this connection. I am impressed and would recommend pursuing action against retailers of binders on this basis.

I successfully reported a seller of disgusting and dangerous jamu sticks to the authorities and got them withdrawn from sale, at least from one retailer who was making unfounded medical claims about them. It was years ago and I don’t recall all of the details, but all it took as a phone call and they acted rapidly to address the situation. So go get ‘em OP would be my suggestion.

Directed by misogyny

Exactly Helle 👏

Well, we needed to have something to read while we wait for the statistics and evidence for my request from the posters who are very keen to allow under 18s to have access (even parental supervised access is problematic) to breast binders.

Instead of, you know, developing alternative ways to deal with the issue that improves overall health as well. Like changing the narrative that young females need to replicate a stereotypical 'male' body. Like learning to deal with a society that has become very keen on objectifying women and girls. Like providing intensive mental health support to help overcome the need to bind their breasts.

Its just another form of self harm.

I've lived with low level reduced lung function. It wasn't hugely reduced. My asthma is mild in comparison to some.

I had chronic fatigue.

A week after starting my latest inhaler my energy went through the roof from the extra oxygen.

Transgender individuals using chest binders have abnormal lung function. The acute effect of wearing the binder appears to be an overall volume reduction with little other change.
REFERENCES
[1] Cumming, R., Sylvester, K. & Fuld, J.P. (2016). Understanding the effects on lung function of chest binder use in the transgender population. Thorax 71. Linkk_]

Thanks Helle.

When my asthma is mildly bad I've had to go bra free ffs.

Constriction on the ribs reduces lung capacity; I can't imagine how dangerous this is for anyone with asthma, let alone a growing body.

www.statsforgender.org/binding/

has links to the studies that show the constriction of breathing. It really just provides support for common sense hypothesis and anecdotal evidence.

Actually, perhaps anaily and newdah will provide the evidence that I was asking for on the AIBU thread where we were told to 'educate' ourselves.

Please provide the evidence that shows us that the majority of young female who identifies as trans who is wearing a binder or seeks to wear a binder and may be one of the large % that suffers permanent damage from wearing a binder will persist into adulthood.

So to help you out, please link up the studies that show the % of those going through GIDS at the moment that will persist into adulthood, and then also the % of detransition from studies that reflect the current cohort of female transitioners.

Then, please link up the estimate of those wearing binders who are even registered with GIDS. Because out of my teens group where I know at least three are wearing binders, not one is registered with GIDS.

And then, please provide us with the words that you would use for your now adult child when you tell them that the risk of damage to their chests, breasts and fitness was worthwhile collateral damage in case they were in the x% that persisted. That it would have been considered hateful to prevent them at the time from expressing their true selves.

And that their damage was also acceptable collateral. Because the lack of discussion, the lack of voices opposing, and the downplaying of the negative effects by media, by adults who are supposed to be impartial, by their friends, supported those who went on to have their breasts completely removed.

I had a good chat with Thomasin who was a detransitioned woman who came to our local feminist group.

She said she had chronic costochondritis from binding.

Need to bare in mind that there's evidence of trans identified teens with lower bone density due to poor vitamin d levels. People who struggle with body dysmorphia tend to cover up and may nothave the confidence to do sports etc which support one density etc. (Also a knob issue among some children an teens with autism. We struggle to get some of our young people to participate in sports or movement of any sort.) Not to mention the impact of puberty blockers on bone density.

Softer bones means any constricting of the chest area reduces lung capacity and will permanently alter the shape of the chest.

Swimming and playing a wind instrument is shown to positively impact lung capacity which helps any one, but especially those with asthma. (Before I was diagnosed with asthma I'd actually managed it well with flute playing and lots of swimming.)

Constriction on the ribs reduces lung capacity; I can't imagine how dangerous this is for anyone with asthma, let alone a growing body.

I see no difference between binding, 19th century corsets, foot binding and breast ironing.

All ways to hurt, harm and control women, by patriarchal systems.

And those ignoring my post about how seriously OTs take any construction of a young rib cage are complicit in harm imo.

And... I will add to that.... I will be advising my teenager to not take up smoking as well. Despite my not having smoked before.

So far we have been told:

Women shouldn't discuss the use of binders if they haven't used one themselves. We should shut up and listen, instead.

We should disregard peer reviewed evidence in favour of anecdote from anonymous internet people.

The use of binders is inconsequential and 'perfectly harmless', they are no different than a fashion item, yet concurrently they are crucial to the mental health/wellbeing of those who wish to use them.

I don't think anyone here has suggested banning them, just research and possible regulation. Find it a little odd that anyone would think more research and support for gender dysphoric young people would be a bad thing. Why leap straight from 'can we get research and regulation that would help young people' to 'OMG they want to ban these life saving devices I mean fashion items'?

The funny thing is that a group of people who have never seen or worn a binder are discussing them….

I have never smoked, but I am perfectly happy and competent to discuss the health damage caused by cigarettes.

I've also worn a sports bra, sometimes for 24 hour stretches

As have I. I have not had any issues ever with bras. And my sport's bras fit well. And I have needed to wear a bra to sleep in at times due to hormonal breast pain.

So, have you worn a binder all day and while exercising?

@Helleofabore I've made and worn a range of corsetry from 16th C stays, to modern goth steelboned designed for tight lacing. I've worn wonderbras. And I've worn a binder. Not a minimizer bra - a binder. No, I'm not trans, but in my teens and twenties was pretty passionate about costuming.

I've also worn a sports bra, sometimes for 24 hour stretches. Ultra-runner. Yes, I have weird hobbies.

The binder was actually pretty similar to the sports bra. Hang out in any running group and you'll hear discussions of sports bra chafing and pain, which sound remarkably similar to the harms claimed for binders. Be warned: there will also be graphic toe nail pictures.

The most painful (and the one which left the most visible marks) was the wonderbra.

I think breastbinding in young people is awful because it's the first step on the road to double mastectomies. But I am not convinced, from my own experience, that a binder is inherently any more painful or harmful than any of the other shapewear that women contort themselves into.

I really do think it would be difficult to write a law which would require medical intervention for the sale of one but not the others. I've never worn Spanx, but the ads claim it will smoosh you two sizes smaller. Why is this inherently different from squidging a C cup to a AA? How do you word a law which distinguishes between the two?

I do not think anyone should be providing children or young people with binders (or bras!) without their parents knowing. If the young person is exploring their gender identity then they should probably be directed to supportive (not affirming!) therapy. The unquestioning acceptance of name, gender and pronoun shifts in teens is damaging, particularly when it happens behind their parents backs. Of course it is. And the provision of binders can be part of that.

But that doesn't mean that they're physically any worse than many other things women choose to wear.

Motorina

And my comment wasn’t directed at you. But the poster who first introduced heels and other ‘body modification’ devices.

Incidentally, were you wearing a binder or a minimizer bra? There is a difference. As an adult or a child? And were you wearing it on a daily basis in school including when you are supposed to be doing exercise, being able to take in lessons and in hot weather.

As a adult, if you choose to wear bras/corsets etc for whatever purpose, that is your choice and if you persist despite pain, well… that is your issue too.

If you are someone who is still developing your mental processes (as is well known, yet people still throw body ‘autonomy’ around for under 18), and your social media feed is full of people minimising the harms of binders (not minimising bras), your search engine has deprioritised any information on negative effects of breast binding and others who have vested interest are also telling you it is harmless or therapeutic, what chance do you have of getting to see the negative effects listed?

Forget about ever finding a diagram or a photo of breast damage on Google - but you may find many images of smiling young females with double mastectomies.