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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall?

85 replies

N00tN00t · 10/11/2021 08:54

I am writing an assignment for college, I have chosen to write about stonewall in businesses. It is a both sides argument essay, and I have been trying to research the effects of stonewall in businesses and companies.

When I started a couple of months ago, there was a lot of websites for both sides, but now when I type anything into Google, it is only coming back with stonewall the website, the history of stonewall or ways to sign up and become a diversity champion. ALL of it is the 'good side' argument. Does anyone know what has happened? I know when I started there was a lot of other results from many different points of view. Can anyone give me some places to go so I can do a balanced assignment?

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 10/11/2021 10:43

The disappearance of negative perspectives from search engines is part of the whole picture, isn't it?

purpleboy · 10/11/2021 10:40

Sounds really interesting op. I'd be really up for reading it when you've finished if you didn't mind sharing?

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 10/11/2021 10:39

I'm assuming that a "balanced" essay means you examine the claims and evidence on each side impartially and even-handedly, but that the conclusion should be determined by the evidence on each side, rather than you having to "sit on the fence"?

NecessaryScene · 10/11/2021 10:34

I'm not sure why I'm not getting the results I was a month or 2 ago, I haven't done anything to offset the algorithm. I searched this morning and it was 2 whole pages of different sections to stonewall website and words I my search crossed out in some results. It was just weird, to be honest.

Google results are very obviously TRA-skewed in the sex+gender area, with dissenting resources downranked. What you were seeing was probably the result of manual intervention (either by Google or external people manipulating the results) to get new pages downranked.

DuckDuckGo is much better. With searches like "sex is a spectrum" or "gender statistics" I get a mixture of results on the first page from both viewpoints.

N00tN00t · 10/11/2021 10:08

You've all been amazing, thank you. I got those results searching just stonewall and clicking on news, but still not getting the results you would expect when searching the damage of stonewall in businesses. I remember SSA, terfisaslur and a few others showing up before. They're not even 3 pages in anymore.

I have loads to work on now, thanks to all of you. I'll get cracking on them this morning!

OP posts:
northstars · 10/11/2021 10:07

@N00tN00t

You've all given me more to work with than Google has in the last 48 hours 😄

I'm the oldest in the class by about 14 years so it was one of those, do I, dont I? We all had to say what we've chosen as our topic, yesterday. I only mentioned one of the 2 I had planned. My tutor asked if I wanted to say what the other one was... took a deep breath and mumbled 'stonewall' they ALL wanted to talk about it and none of them had anything good to say about how things have turned out. They're 19-23. I was really, really surprised! The best thing was, my tutor was fully on board and encouraged the discussion.

Now I just need to write an amazing assignment! I really appreciate all of your suggestions here ❤

All the best for your assignment, OP! It’s really heartening to hear the way your classmates reacted to the topic!
PatsArrow · 10/11/2021 10:06

You could in fact make an interesting point about lack of Google positive searches? Afterall, Google is a business first and foremost.

It doesn't have to sound like a conspiracy theory, just a sentence?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/11/2021 10:00

And don't forget the wishy washy term used by various government departments - it's not value for money!

PatsArrow · 10/11/2021 09:59

*being sued

CousinKrispy · 10/11/2021 09:59

Noot noot! I love saying that.

You probably have plenty to use now but I second the recommendation of trying another search engine such as duckduckgo.

PatsArrow · 10/11/2021 09:58

If you're talking about it from a business perspective, the main thing has to be the susceptibility to bring sued by an employee over the Equality act being misrepresented.
The second is loss of good reputation.

See "egg on face" from the ONS snd Essex Uni for starters.

You could mention that it will be interesting to see if applications to Sussex Uni fall after Dr Stock. Just look at what had happened to Evergreen in the US (although that was mainly race related, it's an interesting parallel I feel)

Datun · 10/11/2021 09:58

Me too.

OldCrone · 10/11/2021 09:53

If you search for stonewall and click on 'news' you should see recent news items about stonewall. This is what I get.

Stonewall?
Babdoc · 10/11/2021 09:53

If you are approaching from a business perspective, OP, you could explore the “Go woke, go broke” angle. Businesses like M snd S driving away their core demographic by bowing to Stonewall and allowing men in women’s changing rooms, employing a male (transwoman) bra fitter, etc.
Organised boycotts of businesses that push Stonewall ideology on their customers, eg sanpro companies referring to “menstruators” or “bleeders” instead of women.
Companies enforcing pronouns on badges or in emails, and providing mixed sex toilets for staff and customers. All in obedience to Stonewall and the trans rights agenda.

yourhairiswinterfire · 10/11/2021 09:51

It's from a businesses perspective, so the effects it has had on companies/employess/consumers and the country as a whole, really

There's the Allison Bailey case.

She has her own site where she lays out her case and posts case updates. One update includes a letter from Stonewall to her Chambers (that the judge described as a threat).

allisonbailey.co.uk/

The update with the letter from SW.
allisonbailey.co.uk/updates/update-5-breaking-exclusive/

N00tN00t · 10/11/2021 09:40

It's from a businesses perspective, so the effects it has had on companies/employess/consumers and the country as a whole, really.

I'm not sure why I'm not getting the results I was a month or 2 ago, I haven't done anything to offset the algorithm. I searched this morning and it was 2 whole pages of different sections to stonewall website and words I my search crossed out in some results. It was just weird, to be honest.

OP posts:
ColourMagic · 10/11/2021 09:38

'Nolan Investigates: Stonewall – All ten podcasts transcribed'

fairplayforwomen.com/stonewall-transcripts/

N00tN00t · 10/11/2021 09:35

You've all given me more to work with than Google has in the last 48 hours 😄

I'm the oldest in the class by about 14 years so it was one of those, do I, dont I? We all had to say what we've chosen as our topic, yesterday. I only mentioned one of the 2 I had planned. My tutor asked if I wanted to say what the other one was... took a deep breath and mumbled 'stonewall' they ALL wanted to talk about it and none of them had anything good to say about how things have turned out. They're 19-23. I was really, really surprised! The best thing was, my tutor was fully on board and encouraged the discussion.

Now I just need to write an amazing assignment! I really appreciate all of your suggestions here ❤

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 10/11/2021 09:32

@N00tN00t

Thank you! These were the sorts of things I have been looking for, they used to come back in the results if I searched 'the effects of stonewall in businesses' or similar. Not now, though.
It's possible that your search engine is only returning results its algorithm deems relevant for you. I would recommend trying duckduckgo.com/ or another search engine, just to check if that is the case.

Google returns different results to everyone on any given search term, based on the data Google has collected on you. (This can be good sometimes, but doesn't always work to our advantage.)

LonginesPrime · 10/11/2021 09:26

The Sex Matters website has useful info.

Are you looking at it from a business perspective or sociology, law, diversity, media studies, etc?

School or uni?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 10/11/2021 09:25

@N00tN00t

I've been on this forum and MN a couple of years, (name changed) so I thought I had built up a good database of sorts. It just now seems that everything has disappeared 😕
If you mean that your links no longer exist, have you looked for archives on Wayback?
Datun · 10/11/2021 09:25

You can google The Spectator journalist, James Kirkup on Stonewall, there are loads of articles about their evolution towards the denial of homosexuality.

Or, alternatively, you could just check out Stonewall's own glossary to give you an idea what an organisation that previously supported gay people now thinks of homosexuality.

Likewise their CEO likening lesbians to racists for excluding men. And the previous CEO claiming that people who believe in biological sex were akin to antisemites.

Just doing an advanced search on here with Stonewall in the title will give you a lot of info, too.

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 10/11/2021 09:24

Oh do also look at Stonewall's submission to the GRA consultation (think it was 2015?) where they proposed removing all the single-sex exemptions from the EqA, which would make it illegal to provide any single-sex spaces or services AT ALL (as this would then be classed as sex discrimination)! This is still available on their own website I believe. And also you could dig into how their schemes (Diversity Champions and the Workplace equality index I think it is?) require companies/orgs to promote Stonewall campaigns and policies (on social media etc) in order to get "points" on the index, despite these policies often being very controversial (e.g. GRA reform) and the likelihood that many employees would not agree with/might even be harmed by them. And them encouraging employers to make toilet and changing facilities "gender-neutral" (aka mixed-sex), and/or to allow employees to "self-identity" into using the facilities of the opposite sex, with no Equality Impact Assessment or consideration of the feelings/needs of other employees (especially women). That should give you plenty to get started on!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/11/2021 09:24

This might help too
sex-matters.org/posts/publications/stonewall-risk-2/

Isthatthebestyoucando · 10/11/2021 09:24

I think Safe Schools Alliance website still has template letters which outline the ways that Stonewalls advice contradicts The Children's Act and The Education Act.