School not using "girl" and "boy"

So a mini mouse cuddly toy and the term mini for vagina.

So the girls tells the teacher her brother touched her mini and the teachers just assumes it’s the toy.

I started my periods at 10 and was quite frankly in shock. My mum choose not to bombard me with an anatomy lesson but to reassure me and give me the practical knowledge I needed. Personally, I think that was the right approach. Anyway. The point is really, do we now need to educate girls that thry are vagina-havers in case they mis-understand viral health advise at school. And if so, is that a good thing? I think not personally. The word girl is a much clearer term than vagina haver.

I think people may be misunderstanding my point. I personally don't use euphemisms to describe body parts of functions. But some people do. If a child comes from a family which does, they could get to 11 and not know that they have a vagina or a penis. This means that sex ed which fails to make this clear, fails the child.

The idea that 'surely all girls know they have a vagina by 11' cannot be used as an argument for it being OK to fail to say that it is girls who have a vagina, not random 'people'. When you talk about people who have vaginas, the girls need to know that it them.

If as a society we allow this sort of situation to continue we fail our children.

Yes I think it’s in Hansard

It was a good question Franca. With children it's a good idea never to assume knowledge and pre empt misconceptions.

A good teacher would do this.

The teacher in this case has assumed a hell of a lot prior knowledge.

Children who are comfortable using accurate terms are much more likely to speak up about abuse.

All of the resources on teaching sex Ed to children with autism and similar disabilities reply on accurate factual language. Euphemisms of any sort are strongly advised against for this group, and there’s no way of knowing how many children won’t yet be diagnosed by year 6.

Stick to facts. Meets everyone’s needs.

I mean not be pedantic but blood is coming out of your womb via your cervix and vagina? No? I'm just not sure that's how my mum described it to me or how I would choose to describe it to a 10 year old. And I do of course know that girls under 10 start menstruating. I'm not an idiot ffs.

Primary schools don’t have to cover gender identity at all.

Secondary schools have to cover it.

However, they must both still comply with the guidance on how they teach it.

Which means using the legal terms-gender reassignment- and teaching that SOME people believe this, but that it doesn’t change biological facts.

Safeguarding relies on children to name material reality. Biological sex is boy or girl. Teachers need to use medically factual language according to the guidance.

They must not teach born in the wrong body or suggest non compliance with gender stereotypes mean a child’s body or personality are wrong and need changing.

They must not use any material from any organisation that suggests this is the case. Including all the organisations listed in the d of e resources list- d of e are clear schools must check if these comply.

If schools were relying on the nhs or even a bloody dictionary as a resource it’s still schools responsibility to ensure they comply with guidance.

Challenge school. If head won’t correct it out a formal complaint in. Tell them beforehand and it’s likely they will do everything possible to fix it so you won’t put in a formal complaint as it stays on file for Ofsted to see. Ofsted have obviously updated their assessment criteria when d of e updated their guidance. After their peer on peer abuse investigation/report anything that impacts safeguarding is even more high priority than before. So schools should want to jump to fix this.

From an educational point of view I would consider words like vagina at that age to be familiar but maybe not instantly recallable. Due to the length of time familiar with the term and how often it comes up.
A bit like I'd expect all children to know triangle but maybe not scalene.

And yes, generally from a safeguarding point of view proper terms are preferred. However, most parents at least when children are younger use cuter terms like wo willy . There's a particular safeguarding issue around girls as there's a less universally understood term and a variety is used like boo boo, mini.
There have been serious abuse cases missed because of the use of such terms.

It's not a case of all info or nothing so within that some people will choose the word vagina and some won't.

It doesn't matter how much you sneer at others , there are still many valid ways to do this.

Hence many late primary school girls will not know they have a vagina.

Hence we need to use the word 'girl'.

I see it as a question of reasonableness. It is true that some children now associate the words "girl" and "boy" with gender identity/other ideas of gender and gender expression, because they have been taught that these words do not relate to biological sex and that rather they relate to gender or a thing called gender identity. Children who have been taught that the words "boy" and "girl" refer to gender identity may well get upset if those words are used to refer to sex (assuming they have been taught that it is upsetting). I think that it is simply not reasonable to say that because some people hold these beliefs/reject the core meanings of these words, that we should stop using those words to refer to biological sex. I cannot see that it is reasonable on any analysis. These words (along with man and woman) are the correct words to describe the reproductive sexes in humans, are the only words available to describe the two sexes and are needed when teaching about biological sex or the sexed reality of humans. So while a school or teacher can sympathise with children being upset, it is not a reason to change the lesson, just a reason to support and be sensitive to the upset child (or, ideally, to try and prevent them from being upset by explaining that using the correct words to describe sex says nothing about individual concepts of gender identity, even while it is confusing that the words used for sex are the same as those now used to describe gender identity).

The correct terms are taught in year six, however, those in education know that something isn't 'learnt' until it's been consolidated several times

Presumably they are taught in year 6 “girls have vaginas” not “people with vaginas have vaginas”.

So the Y7 PSHE lesson is utterly reliant on them understanding the connection from elsewhere.

www.wob.com/en-gb/books/milli-hill/my-period/9781526363374?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-K2MBhC-ARIsAMtLKRuxl65S1zY2A_uNZDoc2DWwbDMypzcSaTMCD_8kcF9zarMgWmn_ApwaAqfLEALw_wcB

This book is for girls 9 and over

Why wouldn’t you tell a girl what’s actually happening and why it’s happening

You got blood coming out of your privates. 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

She’s having a period not random blood coming out of her privates

Privates🤷‍♀️

What’s wrong with the word vagina ?

*Franca some girls do start periods as young as 9 or 10

They do need to know what a vagina is*

They don't need to know the formal terms and the more complex issues of anatomy to manage a period. Many people will talk about period as 'blood coming out f your privates' or something like that. No mention of vagina needed. So no assumption that most 9/10/11 year old girls will know they have a vagina.

If you use the word girl you might upset a girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa.

True. But if you describe a boy as a person who has a penis and a girl as a person who has a vagina, you may upset others people for other reasons including the reinforcing of damaging stereotypes. We might all wish we were something else, but pretending things are as we want them to be is not the answer. I am overweight but I don't expect the category of overweight to be defined such that despite my BMI being 27, I am not in it. I can't identify as having a BMI of 21 and the concept of a boy as someone who has a penis and girl as someone who has a vagina is no less scientific.

It's not helpful to reduce these discussions to 'not upsetting people' as a lack of acknowledgement of incompatible needs and beliefs just means you are privileging one group of people to not upset at the expense of others. I think we need much more meaningful conversations than this.

The correct terms are taught in year six, however, those in education know that something isn't 'learnt' until it's been consolidated several times.
So no, I wouldn't expect the terminology to be second nature to all students at that age.

But why should we stop using these words???? I am a woman!! My daughter is a girl. One son is boy. The other one is a man. Yes, they are my family and I am their parent... but I am also their mother.

Franca some girls do start periods as young as 9 or 10

They do need to know what a vagina is

Do all 11 year olds know if they have a vagina or a penis? Sorry if this is a silly thing to say but I'm just not certain I was totally clear on those words at 11. Don't most parents use words like willy or fanny? Especially for girls, vagina isn't totally relevant. Vulva being the external but would surely be a word most girls have heard over vagina? I can't really think of a time pre-11 where I would need to talk about my daughter having a vagina? Please correct me if wrong as my daughter is younger.

I think there’d be an interesting issue for DfE to consider if there’s nothing to stop schools calling their pupils eg ‘Year 7’ or ‘students’ or whatever and not referring to them again as ‘girls’ or ‘boys’ or using other female or male terms for them anywhere outside of PSHE lessons, to which guidance has been applied. Or perhaps I’ve misunderstood?