Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

School not using "girl" and "boy"

157 replies

Personwithrage · 10/11/2021 08:42

My year 7 DC had a session on puberty in RHSE yesterday. As part of this they labelled diagrams of "people with penises" and "people with vaginas" so as to "not make transgender people uncomfortable" as someone could be "born a boy but believe their personality makes them a girl".

I am so so cross.

I don't have a gender identity, absolutely and wholeheartedly reject regressive stereotypes and have brought DC up to challenge them and to believe they can do and be whoever they want to be. I have also always talked about biological reality and believe that whatever you do, say, wear or think you are still a boy or girl as defined by your biology.

Am I over reacting? Is it unreasonable and excluding to expect puberty lessons to refer to male and female, boy and girl? Is it not ok for my child to refer to themselves in terms they're comfortable with? Are there really lots of 11 year olds with gender dysphoria and a sense of gender identity such that this rings true?

OP posts:
Original poster
Personwithrage · 14/11/2021 14:07

I know @Zeugma - so so scarily bad and unscientific and unreferenced. And yet that is the website the children are given the links to, and that the lessons are based on....because it's "well respected" and "supports teachers."

Thanks @KlaraSun - I've found both those really useful for my letters.

OP posts:
KlaraSun · 14/11/2021 13:00

I'm so glad you're pushing back against this. Kids should have access to clear language to describe these confusing issues. Safe schools alliance are great, Genspect over advocacy support for parents and a school guidance that can be sent to the school genspect.org/guidance-for-schools/

Zeugma · 14/11/2021 11:53

That Brook website is just mind-explodingly terrible.

Sometimes it feels to me as though there’s been some sort of mass hypnotising event and a few of us have somehow escaped and are frantically trying to wake everyone up to reality. It’s like something out of a dystopian novel. How did it come to this?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 14/11/2021 11:37

@MsGoodenough

I don't think anyone is advocating never mentioning the word vagina, just that 'person with a vagina' shouldn't be used as a euphemism for girl/woman.
Quite. And sex ed based on the assumption that everyone knows what a vagina (and therefore whether they have one) would be completely inappropriate).
ValancyRedfern · 14/11/2021 11:10

OP I think you really need to escalate this. You explain your issues really well here. Complain again to the head of PSHE and copy in the Head and Chair of Governors. Say if you don't get a satisfactory response you will make a formal complaint. You also have the option of reporting them directly to Ofsted. There is lots of great guidance on how to be 'that parent' on the Safe Schools Alliance website.

Teachers such as myself really need parent power to help us challenge this in schools. Brooke are a go-to organisation for a lot of schools and they aren't fit for purpose.

Original poster
Personwithrage · 13/11/2021 22:40

I feel unnerved and more vulnerable just by the very thought of having someone, particularly someone in authority, such a headteacher or boss, referring to me by referencing my genitals. It's intrusive, invasive and completely unecessary when words such as girl and woman exist. We don't say, 'the person with the vagina over there' when asked who is here to see us next at work. We say 'the woman sitting by the window'.

Someone, and we don't know why, thinks it is MORE appropriate and LESS offensive for our children to refer to themselves and each other in a class about bodily changes, as 'people with vaginas' or 'people with penises' rather than boys or girls.

I don't personally feel that asking 11 year olds to refer to people by their body parts, particularly their genitals, is more appropriate or remotely necessary. And if I'm wrong and backward and need to get with the programme then I want to be shown the evidence that this is better, and appropriate and educationally sound.

So far there doesn't seem to be any.

OP posts:
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 13/11/2021 22:34

[quote Gmom]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee I haven't read this whole thread but I saw that you think it's valid to teach a girl who is menstruating about menstruation without mentioning the word "vagina." That's just not true. No if ands or buts here. You're wrong. There is tons of evidence that children need to be able to label their own body parts for their health and safety. How would a girl describe an assault accurately? How would she describe a health problem accurately? Having a hang up about the word "vagina" and passing that on to young girls is very damaging. It's a medical word used to describe a part of the vulva. Nothing scary or rude about it.

This article is just shocking.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/30/most-britons-cannot-name-parts-vulva-survey

[/quote]
No, you've mis-read this. I used the word vagina and other 'medical' words from when my kids were very young. But some people don't and we should not exclude kids from sex ed just because their parents did not want to/ were not able to use the word 'vagina'. I was not talking about my own experience and have no hang ups myself.

People do manage to talk about menstruation without mentioning the word vagina - of course they do. You can perfectly well describe blood coming out of you once a month without using the word vagina. Some people might not use the exact word because of a hang up but others might just have grown up using other words.

You seem to be one of those people who don't label things correctly btw! Vagina is internal, vulva is external. The vagina is not a part of the vulva, it's an attached structure. The vaginal opening could be considered part of the vulva but the vagina itself is not. The general lack of knowledge in this area is exactly one of the reasons why we need to be much more explicit regarding whose body we are actually talking about.

www.naturalcycles.com/cyclematters/what-is-the-vulva

Babdoc · 13/11/2021 16:36

Gmom, I think you have missed the point - we are all objecting to the trans rights movement replacing the word “woman” with “person who menstruates” or “vagina haver”. This is offensive and depersonalising, reducing women to body parts. Nobody is suggesting we should not teach girls female anatomy!
If you want to see how unpleasant this twisting of language is, where the terms boy and girl are considered unacceptable, imagine the Head teacher addressing the children at assembly: “Good morning penis havers and vagina owners..” It’s ridiculous and beyond offensive.

Original poster
Personwithrage · 13/11/2021 16:07

I'm all for learning appropriate and correct anatomical terms - strongly encourage it in fact.

I'm not at all sure about their overuse in this context though.

OP posts:
MsGoodenough · 13/11/2021 13:20

I don't think anyone is advocating never mentioning the word vagina, just that 'person with a vagina' shouldn't be used as a euphemism for girl/woman.

Gmom · 13/11/2021 13:18

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee I haven't read this whole thread but I saw that you think it's valid to teach a girl who is menstruating about menstruation without mentioning the word "vagina." That's just not true. No if ands or buts here. You're wrong. There is tons of evidence that children need to be able to label their own body parts for their health and safety. How would a girl describe an assault accurately? How would she describe a health problem accurately? Having a hang up about the word "vagina" and passing that on to young girls is very damaging. It's a medical word used to describe a part of the vulva. Nothing scary or rude about it.

This article is just shocking.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/30/most-britons-cannot-name-parts-vulva-survey

Original poster
Personwithrage · 13/11/2021 12:47

So scary.

OP posts:
2319inprogress · 13/11/2021 11:27

They're being indoctrinated- you don't need evidence for that Hmm

Original poster
Personwithrage · 13/11/2021 10:12

It's such a problem for me, that it's all based on someone's word that this is the right thing to do. Whose word? Whose idea? Right thing for who?

Why is there no evidence, no references, no literature, no data. For things my dc are being taught, as fact, in school.

OP posts:
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 13/11/2021 09:38

I wonder whether there's any evidence that these terms are less of a problem for gender dysphoric young people,

Totally agree. Unless you believe in some sort of innate 'woman-ness@, the only actual difference between men and women is our biology. Being trans is a dysphoria regarding your body. So why would mentioning how your body differs from what it wants to be not be as distressing?

Original poster
Personwithrage · 12/11/2021 23:09

But what is it these people have over everyone else? Why do such a small number get to cause such widespread changes?

OP posts:
twelly · 12/11/2021 22:52

Increasingly this type of approach shows a disregard for what believe to be the majority view - I am increasingly of the opinion that there are a small number of people influencing these policies. Children are being directed away from biology to these views which are not scientific and which encourage them in my view to move away from the norms. of course we are all different but we are now in a situation where the majority are ignored in order not too exclude the very small minority . The facts should be taught not opinion in these sessions

Original poster
Personwithrage · 12/11/2021 22:38

The more I think about it, the more I find it creepy that they're insisting 11 year olds talk about "people with penises/vaginas."

Having a conversation in a room with a teacher and classmates where you have to talk about yourself/friends in relation to your genitals seems so unecessary when girl/boy is available and acceptable. If I was in a meeting where someone referred to me as a person with a vagina, I would feel more vulnerable and uncomfortable.

The P-V focus is a bit odd and I wonder why it's not 'people with testicles/ovaries" or if going external, "penises/vulvas" instead. I wonder if Brook have any reason to choose penis and vagina over other descriptors.

I wonder whether there's any evidence that these terms are less of a problem for gender dysphoric young people, and whether the potential pit falls of using these terms have been given similar consideration. Where is the research? Where is the evidence? Does anyone care about the comparative educational outcomes?

OP posts:
DisappearingGirl · 12/11/2021 21:21

They are relying on the fact that the kids all actually know which category they belong to already, so that they can avoid mentioning it. It is gross negligence when some children will not have been taught adequately about periods at home.

Absolutely. I always think this. It's madness that we're not allowed a word for people of female (or male) sex but any explanation relies on people already knowing it! Fine if you're an educated adult. Not fine if you're a child, or an adult with poor knowledge of health and biology

OperationDessertStorm · 12/11/2021 21:20

That’s shocking from Brook. Why not even use the (hated and still pretty wrong) afab and be clear to your young reader who you are talking about.

hedgehogger1 · 12/11/2021 20:50

A transboy at the All girls school I teach at had a proper hysterical meltdown on sports day last year when they played "who rules the world - girls!" song over the sound system. I do wonder how triggering going to a girls school every day must be for them

MsGoodenough · 12/11/2021 20:38

Please do complain further op and follow the advice upthread. We desperately need parent power to stop this madness.

MsGoodenough · 12/11/2021 20:33

Oh I see. No I wouldn't be reassured either! Schools have outsourced their brains.

Original poster
Personwithrage · 12/11/2021 20:10

No sorry, I meant the links to the Brook website stating that they base their lessons on it as it is a "well respected organisation"

OP posts:
MsGoodenough · 12/11/2021 20:01

What did they send you? Did you mean to attach a picture?