Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

I loath the idea of fighting on the same side as women like say, my own, who knowingly handed me over to be raped by every man in her life.

I can’t begin to describe how unbearable to think we might in fact be ‘ally’s’ on something’s. But I’m pretty sure she knows the world is round also.

We don’t get to draw a line about women who deserve a voice and those who don’t. If we draw a line, if we decide someone women aren’t allowed to be on women’s side, or aren’t allowed to speak on women’s rights, then that line will swiftly become something that is used against us. Men will move it further and further back until the women who deserve a voice number 0.

We can feel revulsion* against some of the women’s views who may well know what a woman is, while still ‘allying’ with them on women’s rights over self id.

*referring to my mother & other women who abuse children, not Christians or conservatives, but others can apply this to them if that suits

@foxgoosefinch there is lots of research on all of this.
Have you been a lesbian for a long time? Because if yes I am surprised this is all news to you.

I am all for treating people in general with respect and curtesy. Kindness isn't just for transpeople.

However, it isn't good to see big companies simply buying into an ideology that is unkind to many... at the same time as denying anyone a voice on the subject.

In your example you mentioned that people could put their pronouns on and wear them proudly. I haven't heard that people who are trans are particularly keen on identifying themselves to strangers in this way.

-It does make them a target when they just want to get on with their own lives.

-t does link them with TRAs and, as we've seen, TRAs have views/behavious that trans and non-trans alike might not want to be associated with.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes It depends. I also know a young lesbian in a women's hostel who was bullied out of it by the other young women. In fairness it was a long time ago when lots more people were anti-lesbian.

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch it is about equality of outcomes. And yes lesbians as a group do have specific health needs. They are at far greater risk of poor mental health, substance misuse and have higher rates of breast cancer. They also have lower rates of cervical smears.
Of course it is not about physical bodies. It is about oppressed groups are treated, how they access or do not access healthcare, and the outcomes that has on health. That is why surveys look at what peoples experiences are, and start to identify what changes need to happen.
This is common research with oppressed groups. And ridiculing does at a minimum show a lack of understanding.[/quote]
You're telling me, a lesbian, about lesbians' mental health needs and substance abuse risk? Where do you get this information from?

Do you know anything about cervical smears for lesbians? (I do -- a lot. From the above, I'm not sure you do.)

Thank you so much for informing me, a professional woman in her forties, about my own oppression

“PurgatoryOfPotholes
I am not sure that people in general think about what LGBT stands for“

I think people in general have no idea other than that it is a nice rainbow and it is ‘good’ and that it would be wrong to question it.

And

That the only true religion is #church of Patti Smith and other rock goddesses.

Everything else is up for debate.

If the earth is flat, what constitutes a feminist parking crime, what dead animal makes up bjs toupee, whether we should get 5 or 10 daily portions of curly wurlys.

But never ever the first two sacred rules of feminism women’s rights:sex and gender board.

I am not sure that people in general think about what LGBT stands for, before they say it. Observing the usage, it seems to be treated as a synonym for either "gay men" or "trans". No-one really considers whether it will serve the L.

For example, people talk about hostels aimed at especially at solving LGBT homelessness. I used to live in a hostel myself, as a teenager. It was a women's-only hostel (no restrictions on sexuality), which has since been shut down, and specialised in offering support for young women's needs. I am not convinced that a young homeless teenage lesbian would be better off in a mixed sex hostel for gay men, bisexual men and males under the transgender umbrella than she would be in the hostel I used to live in.

It’s the latest in power politics don’t you know. According to the scold-a-lot posters who drop

People’s values change plenty. Women have a range of values and they may change radically throughout life.

But we are still always women.

We still have common needs.

Tribal politics shuts down critical thinking. It’s partly what led to this mess in the first place.

Yeah I am a pragmatist. But I don't think it means that strategy does not matter. It is really easy for well-meaning activism to have negative consequences.

@foxgoosefinch it is about equality of outcomes. And yes lesbians as a group do have specific health needs. They are at far greater risk of poor mental health, substance misuse and have higher rates of breast cancer. They also have lower rates of cervical smears.
Of course it is not about physical bodies. It is about oppressed groups are treated, how they access or do not access healthcare, and the outcomes that has on health. That is why surveys look at what peoples experiences are, and start to identify what changes need to happen.
This is common research with oppressed groups. And ridiculing does at a minimum show a lack of understanding.

Also, nobody here can answer for KJK/PP or indeed any other feminist. You’d need to take it up with them. Nobody here is slavishly following them and doing exactly what they’re told. Paying attention to someone, listening to them ,reading their books, following their social media doesn’t imply that you endorse everything they do. It’s a bit odd to think it does, or to say “a woman who isn’t here has attitudes about a topic that I don’t like” and expect any response except, “oh, OK”.

Kellie Jay did this, Kellie Jay said that.

It sounds like she put sand in your sandwiches and you never got over it.

have a problem allying with anyone whose basic objection to transgender movement is that women and men should be in traditional families with traditional roles

I doubt women's objections to the transgender movement is an objection to individuals moving out of traditional roles. The objections are far more important than that. Safeguarding and child protection springs to mind.

The transgender movement is seeped in traditional roles. Much of it wouldn't function without those stereotypes of what men and women should do. Trans people often don't want to move out of those roles do they. They want to embrace them. If you have a problem with people sticking to traditional roles, then I'm surprised you don't object to that?

Personally I don't care what lives people lead as long as no harm is caused to others. If people (whoever they are) want to live in traditional roles then that's entirely up to them. That wouldn't put me off considering them as an ally or a friend. It's about individuals. Not group think.

I’m bored of this line of debate, as it has been periodically resurfacing since the porn and prostitution debates of the 80s. I’m a pragmatist. I want to get shit done, way more than I want to maintain ideological purity. Sometimes, my aims and those of people on the right will coincide. So what?

When it comes to knowing that sex exists, it matters, and children ought to be protected from making irrevocable changes to their bodies, the church of who agrees with that is incredibly broad, and will inevitably include a fair few people I don’t agree with.

So what?

Also, people on the right aren’t necessarily evil, you know. I cant stand that kind of lazy thinking of left = good and right = bad, probably because I’ve done it myself enough times.

Thanks @foxgoosefinch
I am posting in between work so am aware my attention is not 100%

I didn't read that as suggesting that it was you derailing, @julieca. I assumed it was in reference to eg. the late night TRA drive-by accusations of causing WiSpa violence and suchlike.

I don't think your posts are in any way derailing. They are always about the issues at hand and different versions of feminism, as far as I know.

That’s true

I dislike people on principle

It’s really just not good enough that human humans take priority
when everyone knows that the bestest humans are the canine ones

It's like we are twins, except I just dislike people. No principles involved, I'm just a surly fucker.
The bestest humans however are both canine and feline. And I'll not have any felinephobia around me.

Yes you are misunderstanding. It is about strategy.
I agree with everyone here about the substance of objections. I disagree strongly that it is fine to ally with anyone in fighting back against this.
I think it leads to the lack of challenge of frankly anti-lesbian and gay stuff I have seen. For example Kellie Jay ridiculing the idea of a survey asking about health needs for LGBT people.

I have a problem allying with anyone whose basic objection to transgender movement is that women and men should be in traditional families with traditional roles.

So do I. Luckily two things are true: nobody has to "ally with" anyone, and she never said that.

Andrea Dworkin made a fatal error when she allied with the Christian right.

That makes it sound like they killed her. Maybe don't describe decisions as fatal errors when the person is dead, it's misleading. She died in her sleep aged 58 and it had fuck all to do with who she spoke to, allied with or agreed with.