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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone believe this debate will go ahead ?

134 replies

yestheyhavethesamedad · 08/11/2021 08:16

Grace lavery at 2am sunday morning put out a post asking british feminists for a debate , when they are in the uk in march , about 3 minutes later claimed people were too scared to debate 🙄
Helen Joyce, Julie Bindle and a few more woman have said yes ,grace is now saying no one has confirmed and that they are backing out.
So does anyone thing this will actually go ahead and want to place bets on the excuses why suddenly it cannot go ahead , backpeddling already started , ie: no one is organising ect

OP posts:
FOJN · 08/11/2021 13:08

What exactly is up for debate?

I won't tolerate the bullshit accusations it's about trans people's right to exist. Trans people exist, nothing to debate and nothing for me to get over.

Women are adult human females, a sex class, this is scientific fact and I won't debate alternative definitions.

Women have a right to safety, privacy, dignity, fair competition in sports etc, this means excluding males from some spaces and activities. I'm not prepared to debate that either.

It is not the responsibility of women to sacrifice their own rights to make space for another vulnerable group particularly when it increases risks to women. That's not debatable either as far as I'm concerned.

Public debate as theatre is useful in correcting many of the mistaken assumptions people make about the GC position but I also think it also signals a willingness to negotiate and give ground. I don't negotiate with terrorists.

terryleather · 08/11/2021 12:57

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

as soon as women stop being stopped in their tracks by being told that excluding men from women's prisons makes those men sad, and just say 'I don't care, women's safety, privacy and dignity is more important to me than allowing men unrestricted access to women (which isn't important to me at all)', the genderists have no where to go really.

so out come the circular arguments, the anecdotes, and eventually the rudeness. seen it a million times here

Exactly right Bernard, but as Datun points out it's always good to see exactly what the genderists are demanding for themselves and what's expected of everyone else.

As an aside, our farming friends have an eye opening thread on Laverey...

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 08/11/2021 12:50

as soon as women stop being stopped in their tracks by being told that excluding men from women's prisons makes those men sad, and just say 'I don't care, women's safety, privacy and dignity is more important to me than allowing men unrestricted access to women (which isn't important to me at all)', the genderists have no where to go really.

so out come the circular arguments, the anecdotes, and eventually the rudeness. seen it a million times here

Sexnotgender · 08/11/2021 12:40

Take my money people!! This needs to be televised.

Datun · 08/11/2021 12:40

There are tons of smart people, all over Twitter.

I have never yet seen a convincing argument. Not once. Bogus stats resulting in be kind. It's a bit of a piece of piss to refute.

However I won a debate once because I said the solution was to give everyone a martini.

People didn't agree to base government policy on that though!

Sadly...

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 08/11/2021 12:38

grace will have to use underhand techniques like the gish gallop on this, given that no genderist ever has been able to explain why some men are women, and why the world should be rearranged to accommodate their religious beliefs. straight engagement would result is grace getting egg on grace's face

i'd still like to see what Helen Joyce makes of Grace though, despite my worry that she (Helen) may be too well intentioned to have a meaningful interaction with someone like Grace

MidsomerMurmurs · 08/11/2021 12:34

@Thehumblesnail Grace is very smart, and will be difficult to debate - don't kid yourselves. As a public-school educated teenager, Grace took part in various World debating championships, and has since spent a career discussing conceptually difficult ideas in public. Grace is a good polemicist, doesn't lack verbal style or self-confidence, and is pretty ruthless

Well, if you say so. Just seems odd that none of these wipe-the/floor debate-winning points ever surfaces in Lavery’s twitter posts or other outputs (I had the misfortune to wade through a very long post on Lavery’s substack the other week. It had no style and no substance, which is quite a hard thing to pull off I guess).

I don’t doubt that Lavery would be difficult to debate, but more because there’ll probably be lots of bad-faith raised-voice ranting, rather than any actual engagement with the issue at hand.

Just my opinion of course. Everyone’s got one.

RoyalCorgi · 08/11/2021 12:30

But personally, I don't understand how anyone could ever win a debate over this, given that it has the departure from reality as its premise.

Yes. Lavery may be smart (though I suspect not as smart as Helen Joyce or Kathleen Stock) but Lavery is tasked with arguing, in effect, that the earth is flat, which surely has to be harder than arguing that it is round.

Datun · 08/11/2021 12:20

@Thehumblesnail

Grace is very smart, and will be difficult to debate - don't kid yourselves. As a public-school educated teenager, Grace took part in various World debating championships, and has since spent a career discussing conceptually difficult ideas in public. Grace is a good polemicist, doesn't lack verbal style or self-confidence, and is pretty ruthless.

Does she want to sell books? Of course. In fact, Grace currently seems desperate to be sued, or engaged with in other ways that might stir up controversy, in an attempt to corner the trans-saviour market and boost their public profile. She tried to rile Kathleen Stock into biting but that doesn't seem to have worked so now she's trying to use other GC figures to advance her career.

I genuinely believe that smart, well educated, used-to-debate people can get the upper hand in any debate. Politicians do it all the time.

But personally, I don't understand how anyone could ever win a debate over this, given that it has the departure from reality as its premise.

But more than that, much, much more than that, even if your linguistic skills are giving you an advantage in a debate, the very nature of what you're arguing for is what I would like to be put into the public domain.

Even if you win or dominate, let's see what you claim is your prize.

Who on earth can remember the first person who said not all women have a cervix? But now, every politician, gets asked that.

Whatever Grace Lavery asserts, every politician, policymaker, pundit, will be asked whether they agree with it.

I couldn't give a toss about the likes of Lavery. I do care about who is writing prison policy, and putting children and men in the same changing room. And they have to agree with someone like Lavery, in order to do it. So let's all see exactly what Lavery thinks.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/11/2021 12:14

Lavery is not stupid. The fact that someone embraces stupid ideas doesn’t make them stupid, particularly when they are the ideas that in the current environment will push your career forward.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/11/2021 12:12

Yy agree totally Thehumblesnail.

Thehumblesnail · 08/11/2021 12:05

Grace is very smart, and will be difficult to debate - don't kid yourselves. As a public-school educated teenager, Grace took part in various World debating championships, and has since spent a career discussing conceptually difficult ideas in public. Grace is a good polemicist, doesn't lack verbal style or self-confidence, and is pretty ruthless.

Does she want to sell books? Of course. In fact, Grace currently seems desperate to be sued, or engaged with in other ways that might stir up controversy, in an attempt to corner the trans-saviour market and boost their public profile. She tried to rile Kathleen Stock into biting but that doesn't seem to have worked so now she's trying to use other GC figures to advance her career.

WarriorN · 08/11/2021 11:47

@Datun

Placemarking for the debate details ✏️

Same

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 11:39

These people have parroted 'no debate' for so long and yet are now pretending that it is our side that won't debate. Even while we're shouting "yes, yes, we are happy to debate! Just name a time and place!"

Of course Lavery is terrified of debating Helen Joyce. Lavery knows that Joyce has more intelligence in her little finger than Lavery does in Lavery's massive ego-inflated head.

Yes. This isn't going to happen. For GL all attention is attention. Matthew D'Ancona is fair minded and on a personal level supports some GC arguments. What I think will happen is that if it gets definitely confirmed as going ahead Twitter TRAs will be enraged about GC views being platformed at all (because secretly they know who has the more convincing rational arguments) and will force its cancellation. GL will get lots of attention and may be able to position self as trans victim of cancel culture.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/11/2021 11:35

This will be amazing. Take my money, I want a ticket.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 11:34

D'Ancona is the moderator , helen joyce has agreed to debate , so has julie bindel and sarah phillmore so the no woman will debate me was quickly shot down , so gl is now going with no one has confirmed no one has given me details because they won't give me their email addresses, and are not responding within 30 sevonds of me posting , even though im not tagging them , for them to be able to see

Thank you! Eye roll.

Sophoclesthefox · 08/11/2021 11:33

I have serious doubts that Lavery will actually front up and do the debate, but would love to be proved wrong.

I can’t help but imagine that Lavery vs Joyce might fall foul of laws against blood sports in the UK though 🤣

NecessaryScene · 08/11/2021 11:33

Grace Lavery is mainly famous for being a trans academic. Grace opines on various matters trans-related, but is not very well-informed. Still, Grace gets published, and Jesse Singal has to clear up the mess afterwards.

Tweet linking to related thread: twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1457447296585670659

I believe Grace will be in the UK to promote a book, and this would accompany that.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/11/2021 11:30

‘Of course Lavery is terrified of debating Helen Joyce. Lavery knows that Joyce has more intelligence in her little finger than Lavery does in Lavery's massive ego-inflated head.‘

I think you are waaaay underestimating the confidence of someone like Lavery.

Datun · 08/11/2021 11:29

Placemarking for the debate details ✏️

yestheyhavethesamedad · 08/11/2021 11:28

@Cailin66
Not sure what started it , i looked at helen joyce twitter and was loads of people tagging her in gl post about holding a debate , while helen said yes gl was posting how british feminists were ignoring and too scared .
Loads of people pointed out that whatever time it is where gl is , it was 2 am on a sunday morning in britain , gl then said no one has confirmed they running scared , even after helen joyce said yes , but no organisation can be started till a working day , to give her a chance to speak to people to moderate

OP posts:
Cailin66 · 08/11/2021 11:21

@yestheyhavethesamedad

Grace lavery at 2am sunday morning put out a post asking british feminists for a debate , when they are in the uk in march , about 3 minutes later claimed people were too scared to debate 🙄 Helen Joyce, Julie Bindle and a few more woman have said yes ,grace is now saying no one has confirmed and that they are backing out. So does anyone thing this will actually go ahead and want to place bets on the excuses why suddenly it cannot go ahead , backpeddling already started , ie: no one is organising ect
Could we have some context please. I had to google Grace Lavery. She is a transwoman in an American university it seems and she will be in the UK for what reason in March?

2 am on Sunday is a pretty odd time to expect responses from people based in the UK.

Scraggythang · 08/11/2021 11:20

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Ekofisk · 08/11/2021 11:08

Helen Joyce suggested yesterday that, with it being Sunday, everyone waits until working hours to start organising things.

Lavery responded with Too busy. Gotcha.

Erm, no, it’s the weekend.

Anyhoo, it seems that Sarah Phillimore is more than up for all of this.

RoyalCorgi · 08/11/2021 11:07

These people have parroted 'no debate' for so long and yet are now pretending that it is our side that won't debate. Even while we're shouting "yes, yes, we are happy to debate! Just name a time and place!"

Of course Lavery is terrified of debating Helen Joyce. Lavery knows that Joyce has more intelligence in her little finger than Lavery does in Lavery's massive ego-inflated head.