What proportion of male lesbians is too high?

I think the numbers of 'transwomen'* in certain groups/ events is rising. There's one I'm aware of where the organisers, having allowed a couple of TWs to sign up for camping weekends and activity days, are starting to get concerned because those TWs have put the word out and they're getting more interest from that direction. I understand that at a recent event involving around 20 people, 5 were trans. Word gets around.

• I wrote 'transwomen' because frankly no one has any idea what they are dealing with. I've heard that the organisers of one 'lesbian' event that is open to TWs suspect that the event was attended by a cross-dressing stag party for a laugh. It comes to something, doesn't it, when lesbians are trying to sort out the genuine TWs from the fake TWs, but that's where we're going.

There is a need for lesbian events, where lesbians can meet other lesbians, and unless everyone is aware of and happy with the fact transwomen will make up a proportion of the "lesbians" there, it's not really fair on those who pay money to go along and meet other women.

A straight man who goes to a nightclub for "ladies night" where women get in free is paying for the fact there are women there, he's not paying to dance with his mates. If he showed up and it was like the club on the first Inbetweeners film he'd feel ripped off. Lesbians are not well off as a demographic (there are obviously well off lesbians but not the majority!) so many will just stop going to things, if we learn that what is advertised as an opportunity to meet other lesbians turns out to be something else.

Obviously in some circumstances a mixed group is fine, but the issue is that isn't always clear. If I was going to an LGBT event I'd expect lesbians to be a small minority; if I was going to a lesbian event I'd expect it to be only lesbians there with maybe some bi women and a handful of straight friends.

It's a sad situation and the fact many lesbians are trying to hide underground is indicative of how bad things are. Also, if you've only recently come out, there's not much that isn't mixed, LGBTQetc. How would you find gender critical lesbians, and enough of them to create a lesbian-centred social life? It's hard work and even in Brighton it isn't easy. One bar that used to be lesbian central now has "no terfs" signage all over it.

I think the lesbians have self selected out and meet elsewhere.

There's some of this happening but it doesn't really help in meeting new people, if we are relying on meeting a friend of a friend at a private party.

Women, who are not gay, don't usually go to a gay bar and pretend they are gay men, though. I'd suspect the gay men there wouldn't be allowing their boundaries to be breached to accommodate that notion, either. I imagine any woman identifying as a 'gay man' would get short shrift, with no feeling of obligation to caress their 'identity'.
This does happen though. Women identifying as gay men are on grindr and go to saunas (and got refused entry at one but was let in after they checked their licence apparently) and there are cases of women committing rape by deception on gay men and on other women.

NewlyGranny: I think this is already happening. I've spoken previously about my experiences at a university LGBTQ++ club (which banned gay men from having their own spaces and events because gay men are 'privileged'. Guess what, the gay men have voted with their feet and don't really go to any general events any more.) I went to an event which was for all members of the LGBTQ etc, and I kid you not I didn't meet a single lesbian, and maybe one (at most) bisexual woman. Everyone around me was a trans woman, trans man, non binary, or some flavour of queer/gender fluid. I think the lesbians have self selected out and meet elsewhere.

If one transwoman rejects another as a potential partner, that's the very transphobia and bigotry lesbians are being accused of, right? So nobody will dare say anything out loud.

That could lead to quite a gloomy trip up the Rhine or wherever.

This will solve itself in no time. The more lesbian-onlybevents that are inclusive to transwomen, the more transwomen will pile in, the more lesbians will read the fine print and stay away in droves.

Interestingly, if an event winds up being 90% - 100% transwomen, they won't be able to complain about it will they, because TWAW and penises are female organs, after all.

The Tweet is supposed to show lesbian spaces are being taken over by trans women - 90% here. The responses don't believe 90% of the people who turned up were trans. There's no need to argue they trans participants are women.

If they thought there was no issue why not comment "so what?" Why try to deny it happened? Is it because they agree it is bad for a lesbian space to be taken over by males?

Jesus fucking christ.

That name for men who are aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman....well, I mentioned it on Mumsnet and got told off. I don't really understand why as it is a valid psychiatric description. We are allowed to mention words like anorexia or sexual philias so why not this one? It is not a term of abuse. DH said that when he learned this one word that the whole thing fell into place for him.

Well denying it happened means they know it looks bad, so there's that.

I'm sure there is a name for men who are aroused by the thought of themselves as women, and probably given the male fascination with lesbianism, it makes it even more attractive if the women they think themselves to be is a lesbian.

I wonder what that name is? I just can't seem to remember it......

Are we back to trying to discredit the ‘poster’ or the ‘event’ rather than addressing the topic of the post again?

A 'boating holiday' doesn't have to be sailing - it could be on a cruiser, say on the Norfolk Broads, or a narrowboat on the canals. Some of them have 10 or 12 berths.

These kinds of boats have been available for hire this year. Say someone hired one and advertised a group holiday on it, similar to the holidays in lodges and bunkhouses for lesbian and bi women referenced on another thread in September this year.

It could easily happen.

There are plenty of boating holidays being advertised but those are for direct booking of the boat- not the holiday. I see small group cruises being advertised for 2022.

I'm still sceptical that someone would be comfortable at being cooped up in a small space with 9 strangers for an extended period.

I wonder how many Transwomen are in sexual relationships with other Transwomen ? Genuine question.

People are pretty much behaving like it's back to normal near me, I know you are in Scotland Kimiko, aren't you, so maybe it's different there?

Most of the holiday tour groups have started up again so I think it's perfectly possible that group sailing holidays are happening.

The assertion that it is NOT TRUE does imply a tacit acknowledgment that IF IT WAS true, it could be a problem

I didn't take that from the responses at all. There's no point in saying trans women are women to Bailey. I took it that they don't believe the attendees were 90% trans.

Why aren’t they saying they’re fine with it, then? Why is the reaction that the situation must be made up? Why is it important to stress the numbers angle?

What would be the point of saying they're fine with it? The importance of stressing the numbers angle is because that's what the tweet they are responding to did.

The Tweet is supposed to show lesbian spaces are being taken over by trans women - 90% here. The responses don't believe 90% of the people who turned up were trans. There's no need to argue they trans participants are women.

I immediately thought of trans men attracted to trans men. Is this perhaps what is meant?

Allison Bailey would absolutely not be calling them "heterosexual males". And I don't believe she could be miscommunicating with the primary source to that degree.

So are these heterosexual male "lesbians" attracted to each other - I.e other people with penises?

I think a lot of GC women insist that obviously they'd not be.

But in practice, these males (the ones colonising lesbian spaces) will often pair up with each other. Blanchard calls it pseudo-bisexuality, IIRC. They're not really attracted to men - they're really heterosexual - but they're primarily attracted to "themselves as women", and they might accept a relationship with a male willing to participate in that fantasy, if they can't find a woman to do so.

And as Eresh says, those who don't do this have the "dysphoria" excuse.

No such thing as a male lesbian.

I.....a lesbian, am offended everytime i hear such nonsense.

Reading with interest but when I read “ male lesbians” I immediately thought of trans men attracted to trans men. Is this perhaps what is meant?
If not then I agree about no such thing as a male lesbian,
Equally women could invade gay men space as identifying as a gay man.
World gone mad.

They often seem to say that causes them too much "dysphoria".