Pronouns

@Santastuckincustoms fair enough but does literally everyone in your organisation have stated pronouns? Or is it only some people that would be punished in some way for “dissent”? A large majority of people in my work do this (they’re academics; they haven’t actually done any critical thinking about it of course). I never will. If anyone asks, I will say I do not want to. If (and I really don’t think it could come to this) there was any sense of compulsion then I would say “I’m coming to terms with my gender identity and don’t feel ready to out myself”. I might also mention the Yogyakarta Principles.

NB I do not have a “gender identity” and I know that the Yogyakarta Principles are misogynistic (they didn’t even consider women when drafting them), but I would use both arguments to shut down any lack-of-pronouns criticism.

And not stating pronouns is important to re-normalise this utterly normal behaviour.

@MidsomerMurmurs no of course it's not legally enforced but the culture and my role makes it very very unwise to dissent on this. It would mean my entire life becomes defending my decision rather than getting on with my job.

I’ve never really understood why you’d put pronouns in an email signature. If I emailed Jane, I’d use Jane/you/me/I, not she/his/her etc.

It’s only if I’m talking about Bob to Jane that I need third person pronouns. And I’m not wasting my time flicking back to Bob’s email to find out if the tall, bearded, deep voiced human is he/she/xie when Bob is very clearly male.

I have to use pronouns in email or I'll out myself which means I'd lose my job

Does your employer have anything in writing that says putting pronouns on an email signature is a condition of employment? That would be pretty extraordinary and would be worth asking the HR department about.

One of my best friends has a DD who is a they - he uses it, I don't though I rarely see his DD and just don't use any third person pronoun when I do see her. Anyway, the conversation regularly gets confusing (when he also manages to call her they instead of she, he often gives up!) e.g. "DD didn't go into college today, they called me when I was at work" - sounds like it's the college who called not the DD.

I think you're right in some cases. Many are people wanting to conform or do the right thing. I have to use pronouns in email or I'll out myself which means I'd lose my job. And obviously there are people who genuinely need people to know that they are trans.

However I have come across people who are very pushy with them. I had a meeting this week where we all introduced ourself and a man I work with a lot introduced 'themselves' with pronouns (no one else had) and as he/they. I feel he does this to deliberately trip people up and I think he'd be very quick to report if you slipped up. It seems all about making everyone think specifically about 'they' all the time to the detriment of having a proper discussion. As a result I just use 'they's' (???) name so sound like a lunatic: "Dave said Dave's report is good but Dave doesn't like what Sarah said about Dave"

Being of this generation, I am au fait with people who identify as non-binary and wish to overhear/see both sets.

What is tripping me up is people like an actor I came across yesterday, whose specified pronouns are they/him/hers. Not they/he/she. So I think they're specifying they want third person plural subject, third person singular masculine object, and third person singular feminine possessive.

And at this point, for the first time, I, with my alleged talent for languages*, am not simply unwilling to comply, I am unable to comply. I can learn entire new sets of neo-pronouns with ease. I can switch pronoun sets for people. I can alternate between third person plural and singular when I speak of one individual person.

But I really couldn't undo decades of knowing she/her/hers and he/him/his and break them apart to reassemble as him + hers for one individual person, when it is still she/her/hers and he/him/his almost everywhere else.

I cannot code-switch to that extent.

*GCSE languages teacher. Hey, I'm just quoting here.

For example, the singer Halsey has requested she/they pronouns and complained after a magazine did a feature on Halsey in which they only using she/her/hers.

extract

Halseyhas announced she will no longer do press after Allure magazine failed to use their correct pronouns inits August cover storyand promoted the interview by taking quotes out of context. [Bold mine. Notice how the writer switches from she, to their, in the same sentence.]

Ina series of tweetsearly Wednesday morning, the 26-year-old called out the magazine directly and demanded that they "do fucking better."

"First your writer made a focal point in my cover story my pronouns and you guys deliberately disrespected them by not using them in the article," Halsey wrote.

The musicianannounced in Marchthat they would be using she/they pronouns going forward,later explainingthat while they are happy for people to use either, "the inclusion of 'they,' in addition to 'she,' feels most authentic to me." [bold mine]

"If you know me at all you know what it means to me to express this outwardly," she wrote in an Instagram story at the time.

Despite the fact that Allure's cover story explicitly mentioned Halsey's use of she/they pronouns — and quoted them as saying pronoun preferences are "meant for you to help better understand yourself" — the magazine exclusively used she/her pronouns throughout the profile. It hassince been editedto include both she and they pronouns.

While preferences differ for each person, generallywhen people use multiple pronouns,it is best to use them interchangeably unless they specify otherwise. [bold mine]

Continues here www.buzzfeednews.com/article/eleanorbate/halsey-called-out-allure-no-more-press

As per my previous post, there is no other context where making a political statement on your email signature would be considered professional.

The reason why this has seeped into the workplace is through lobbying and "training" by the likes of Stonewall.

It's not at all unprofessional to dispute any company mandate/policy as long as you do so factually and appropriately.

you'll find that going against company recommendation is likely to be judged "unprofessional

Rather unprofessional to force people to declare their pronouns / drag gender politics into the work place.

@CatherinaJTV

As you are being intentionally disingenuous I will not bother discussing this with you.

No one said "Marian heard her mother return, so they hid behind the curtain." Wrong, and confusing.

well, yes, if you refer to Marian as both "her" and "they"

Yes, these people are usually attention seeking virtue signallers. Last year my boss took everyone’s “preferred pronouns” with designs on displaying them in work emails. Ludicrous and very unprofessional proposal

Totally straightforward.

Anyway, I tend usually to think people who do this are of the "be kind" variety unless I have reason to think something else. But it also signals to me it may be someone I need to watch out for.

No one said "Marian heard her mother return, so they hid behind the curtain." Wrong, and confusing.

Of course language could change in the future, but this seems an unlikely direction.

I massively judge that they are not able to critically think, jump on whatever is the latest bandwagon and are virtue signalling bores

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns

Why do all the Genderists on here follow the same name format on their username (female name followed by three random letters). Are you all in a club?

It really depends on the situation. Having spoken to women in relatively junior work roles they are often out under pressure to add their pronouns and don't know how to say no. So on that situation I judge the people who are forcing that on them. If it's a senior colleague then yes I judge them as a virtue signaller/ narcissist

My mentality is that if I'm discussing someone in the third person who is not present, they should be grateful I'm discussing them at all! I will choose whatever language I want to discuss other people. That's how language works. It's organic and shouldn't be dictated.

I have never actually encountered a pronoun declarer. If I did I think I, and anyone else in sunny Lancashire, would look at them as if they had two heads.

Pronouns are clarity and convenience.

Not if someone uses the incorrect pronouns for their sex - then it causes confusion and inconvenience.