Pronouns

@Motorina “Putting any reference to someone's biological sex in their clinical notes is also 'discriminatory abuse', inspite of some of the conditions we treat being more or less common in men and women”

That sounds absolutely extraordinary. Do you work in a healthcare/clinical setting? In the UK? I’m obviously not asking you to reveal any specifically identifying information, but if it’s possible to quote any of the official instructions you’ve been given re not recording anything about a patient’s sex in their clinical notes, that would be really interesting to read.

The reason being incorrectly sexed in collaborative EU projects never caused any problems may be because ones sex is usually utterly irrelevant to the collaboration and research.

I mean really , why should I care at all what sex or gender the person I am working with has? What difference does that make to my work? To how should treat them or expect to be treated ?

I am always grateful when people put their pronouns - saves me googling the Kims and Sams - I recently chatted to a customer service person with a VERY traditionally female name (at least in German) who did NOT have their pronouns in their (follow up) email and had to first name them, since I couldn't be sure that baritone had been a man (I googled it - that German women's name is a man's name in Eastern Europe, like Simone and Andrea are men's names in Italy).

Pronouns are clarity and convenience.

See, this exactly why I don't get the need for declared pronouns.

I've worked in international contexts for years and as you say, it's very common to not know someone's sex from their name. But I've never had a problem doing my job and have managed not to cause offence by assuming that a person could be either sex until I actually know.

It's perfectly normal for me to say "your colleague Xien" or "Taylor asked me to give you a call" and then to keep things neutral until someone who knows them confirms which pronouns are suitable. I have never known it to be an issue in a business context - as long as you don't assume, you just get in with your job as usual until you have more information.

I can see why someone might prefer to declare their pronouns in advance if they're upset by being misgendered, and that's obviously up to them.

But even with colleagues who are non-binary, if someone else refers to them as "she" in a meeting, it's quite easy to say "actually, Tan prefers 'they'" or to make a point of modelling Tan's preferred pronoun in your reply, if that's what they've requested.

I absolutely see how this has evolved from LGBT allies initiatives (similar to heterosexual staff putting rainbow flags on their desks to show it's a safe space to talk about your weekend plans with your same-sex partner without jeopardising your promotion prospects).

But there's being an ally and there's being sucked completely into someone else's belief system without your consent. Which is exactly what forced declaration of pronouns is.

Catrina - names and pronouns aren’t the same though so not sure what relevance your point has. Names are chosen. Pronouns aren’t.

Loads of people have to put with the wrong name though - eg I know an Andrew who everyone calls Andy even though he doesn’t like it. Lots of people get abbreviated or given nicknames that they might not particularly like, often different names by different groups of people. Sometimes people are known as eg Short Dave or New Sarah.

[quote donquixotedelamancha]@CatherinaJTV

have you run out of arguments, so you go ad hominem?

No, it was a genuine question. There are at least 3 of you who have the same format and also follow the same pattern of never engaging in actual discussion, just derailing every thread. Only one of you ever joins in each thread.

My presumption is that you are just switching usernames but I'm wondering if you'd care to explain?

None of that is ad hominem. You are entitled to switch user names and to not engage constructively. I'm explicitly not accusing you of trolling, I'm just curious about it.[/quote]
I am one person, I only ever use this username, I have not ever switched usernames on mumsnet. It's interesting that you find a dissenting opinion to "derail" threads though. I give my opinion, which is often a counterpoint to the prevailing voices on here. That should be ok?

My thoughts on this:

1. My son and husband get misgengered regularly. Especially my son who is four but has shoulder length blonde hair. We politely correct people, laugh and say "I know, it's the hair isn't it". No offence taken, ever.

1. I have never in my 45 years on this planet been unsure of what pronouns to use when talking about someone. Which leads me to believe this is a niche issue which is somehow being elevated to a level of importance disproportionate to the number of people it actually impacts

1. If the real driver behind visible pronouns is to make those struggling with their gender identity feel more comfortable, then why are we not adding our sexuality, neurological position, mental health diagnosis and disabilities to our email signatures?

Yes I judge. No excuses. We have a corporate email signature with a pronouns line but I have deleted it .

Motorina, why don’t you choose ridiculous pronouns and then put the onus on the idiots who enforce this rubbish, as they will then be the ones at risk of disciplinary if they forget to refer to you as ‘xiey’ in conversation.

We can either ignore this rubbish and refuse pronouns, or show it up for the ridiculousness that it is by choosing stupid pronouns.

My father received his first pronouned email the other day, from a church person. He replied saying that he had noted her pronouns and wondered if the Queen now uses one/we. He told LOTS of people.

If people have them in their email I tend to think either "unthinking virtue signaller" or "wants to make themselves look good". However the new non binary staff member at my large organisation who has written our guidance on why pronouns matter and all sorts of other junk, who does apparently have a real (unrelated) job but appears to spend all their time on this, yes, I think they (though I know, obviously, he is a fucking man because of course he is) are narcissistic and addicted to feeling special.

His (their) email pic is a blue haired anime character. I mean honestly. But the head of service has since added her pronouns. It's so indulgent that this person is taken seriously. Like the adults all decide to pretend it's something important to keep the kids happy. How can the pronoun people not see that largely they are being patted on the head with all this.

I went for dinner at a pizza place last week and the wait staff all wore pronoun badges (presumably mandated). One young woman had a "he/him" badge. (Incidentally, there was not a name badge in sight.)

The situation was totally bizarre. Who imagines that customers are going to be talking about their waiter?? To the extent that they need to know the ~gender identity of their waiter?? And that it matters how they refer to the waiter in private conversation??

And yes, I do think pronoun people are narcissists who don't have any real problems, or struggles to overcome - they could direct their energies externally and help others/their communities, but instead prefer to gaze eternally inwards and suck up the energy of others. Obviously anecdotal/biased evidence (because I seem to hang out in the worst groups) but 90% of the time it is middle class men and women asking to be referred to as "they". f* off.

The musicianannounced in Marchthat they would be using she/they pronouns going forward,later explainingthat while they are happy for people to use either, "the inclusion of 'they,' in addition to 'she,' feels most authentic to me."

So she isn't actually happy for people to use either, is she?

Pronouns are in the eye of the beholder.

We have been specifically told at work that misgendering someone is 'discriminatory abuse' and will be treated as a disciplinary matter. Putting any reference to someone's biological sex in their clinical notes is also 'discriminatory abuse', inspite of some of the conditions we treat being more or less common in men and women.

Fortunately I'm mostly okay with pronouns* if someone presents as their chosen gender, even if they're not 100% convincing. At least, if they follow the standard he/him or she/her pattern - if that gets mixed up then forget it, brain can't process. No attempt to present as the pronoun-gender? My brain won't do that. Sorry. Which means the "Robert is he/him" example above is even more redundant.

(*Okay in the sense of 'able to do it'. I have philosophical objections, but it isn't my place to start challenging my client's sense of self.)

Know not no

God point Motorina, I’m not completely faceblind, but take a long time to learn names and can’t recognise people out of context. I have to have met people a considerable number of times regularly and ongoing to even no I’ve seen them before. If, for example, I did a week long course with someone I probably wouldn’t recognise them. I entirely forget students a couple of years after they’ve left. I’m not sure I could remember loads of pronouns even if I wanted to.

I’d like to think that if I were non-binary or trans that I would be very understanding if people misgendered me sometimes. I struggle enough with people’s names. It’s a lot to remember and if it’s not someone you talk to often it requires more mental effort to be consistent with it (a bit like that mind game where you see the word “green” written in red pen).

I personally think people should be free to put their pronouns in their emails but it should definitely be optional.

And at this point, for the first time, I, with my alleged talent for languages, am not simply unwilling to comply, I am unable to comply.

Thank you so much for saying this! I'm autistic and faceblind. In a meeting setting I am already juggling remembering names, learning a verbal tag for each name, trying to figure out what other peoples faces are doing, trying to make sure my face is doign the things it should, oooo that lightbulb's buzzing... My 'not able to comply' clicks in much earlier. So, in the 'Robert' example...

How is it inconvenience? "This is Robert (he/him)" - "Hi Robert, nice to meet you" - "Have you seen Robert, he was going to give me the company file"

There are two ways this can go.

If Robert is clearly a bloke this is redundant information. I knew Robert was he/him. You have wasted your breathe.

If Robert is visibly female my brain is now trying to juggle pronouns on top of all the other stuff. Something else will have to go. It will probably be listening to content. I may (maybe!) get Robert's pronouns right but following what he says, too? Brain overload.

For people with learning difficulties, using English as a second language, non-neurotypical or with hearing problems this is am real additional mental load. Is it reasonable to demand that, particularly when it may not be 'will not' but 'cannot'.

@CatherinaJTV

have you run out of arguments, so you go ad hominem?

No, it was a genuine question. There are at least 3 of you who have the same format and also follow the same pattern of never engaging in actual discussion, just derailing every thread. Only one of you ever joins in each thread.

My presumption is that you are just switching usernames but I'm wondering if you'd care to explain?

None of that is ad hominem. You are entitled to switch user names and to not engage constructively. I'm explicitly not accusing you of trolling, I'm just curious about it.

One of my students has changed from trans ftm to genderfluid. He asked that I now refer to her as a mixture of he/she/they. I said I'd do my best. We had a nice chat but I did gently say that I found it strange the pronouns thing because generally you're asking someone to refer to you in a particular way when you're not there. He didn't understand so when I said I would normally call her by their name in their presence otherwise it's rude, it was like some lightbulb went on. "Ohhhh yeah" she said.

Oh and btw, I've done as they asked here using a mixture of pronouns. It's really confusing isn't it, grammatically!

It is beyond arrogant (and utterly ridiculous) to expect anyone to memorise over 500 pronoun combinations for their colleagues, acquaintances and friends. Or for a teacher to memorise over a thousand in a secondary school.
How very self important of anyone who thinks we should.
And no woman should be putting pronouns on emails - research shows she will be discriminated against for being female. Sticking to initials, surname and job title is the only way to ensure she will be treated with equal respect by male recipients.

But Katrina, in your example Robert isn’t there. Of course I would use people’s preferred names and treat them with respect, but it really doesn’t matter what pronouns I use about Robert when he can’t hear. I’m happy to go along with his wishes out of courtesy but that doesn’t extend to him controlling my language in his absence. It’s a nonsense and I don’t have to participate. I wouldn’t be using ‘him’ in front of him because it’s rude to talk about people without using their name when they are present.