Women died for my right to vote, but......

I take the point that anti semitism is not the point of the thread, but the argument of ‘it doesn’t affect me so why should I care’ is part of the reason we’re in the mess we’re in over gender. I’m hoping that decent men (who have a lot less skin in the game on this issue and who could easily say that self id doesn’t affect them so why should they care) will still make a principled stand on this.

And yes - you are right. The two issues are obviously linked, which is why it's not only upsetting and wrong for feminists not to give a shit about racism against Jews, but also really stupid and misguided (the exact same thing goes for those who stood up against antisemitism but not for women).

@BloodinGutters
Now that’s either intentionally manipulative or poor reading comprehension. Either way appealing to female socialisation to think of every other group before my needs as a women and my daughters needs won’t work on a feminist board.

I am a feminist and a mother. I'm not doing any of that. I am saying that it is very upsetting to see many, many people saying that now they can't vote Labour, but they were fine with doing so when it was "only" Jews that were being thrown under the bus.

There are posts after yours in this thread that state explicitly that they don't give a shit about racism against Jews or what happens to Jewish people.

equally not equality

My recollection was that the gender issue was on the radar in the last election. I certainly remember the anti-semitism issue and it troubled me very much.

I'm also interested to know whether other interest/identity groups will be equally as keen to stand up for women as well as their own issues and how much they will be chastised if they do not.

I didn’t vote labour in the last general election because of the anti semitism and the misogyny (but predominantly the anti semitism because I still hadn’t totally realised the scope of the gender issue at that time). I’ve been horrified by a lot of the left-leaning people I know in their reaction to the anti semitism, and to an extent I think this is linked to the failure to give a damn about the gender ID issue. There’s a trend of thought of ‘who’s the most oppressed group, they’re the ones I’ll support’ even to extreme and cruel degrees. So no sympathy for Jews, because Palestine; no engagement over cologne or grooming gangs because this would involve siding against Muslims in this simplistic world view; and no support for women now because trans people are the ‘most oppressed’. No attempt to see context or nuance. All or nothing. It worries me, and is alienating me from a lot of the left.

Would still vote sdp if they stood in my constituency.

[quote BudgeSquare]@bothjetplanes thank you so much for saying that.

I and every other Jewish person i know lost lifelong friendships over that.

You can see even on this thread how willing some people are to declare that they openly don't consider antisemitism a problem because it doesn't personally affect them.[/quote]
Now that’s either intentionally manipulative or poor reading comprehension. Either way appealing to female socialisation to think of every other group before my needs as a women and my daughters needs won’t work on a feminist board.

[quote BudgeSquare]@BloodinGutters

That is exactly my point. You see racism against one particular group as someone else's problem. Not something that needs to concern you in the slightest. Not a dealbreaker.

I'm sure it isn't too much of a stretch to see how that attitude might not make Jewish people feel very secure in our future here.[/quote]
I didn’t say I see it as someone else’s problem. I said this is the feminist board, exclusively for women’s issues.

Feminism only has to centre women and issues that impact us because of our sex. When it centres any other groups issues it swiftly turns to being all about men’s voices again. Female socialisation is already all about women putting ourselves and our own issues last always, we need to work against that here to prioritise women’s issues that impact us because of our biological sex.

That’s not to say many of us wouldn’t support other issues, but this board isn’t the place for it.

I have been spoiling my ballot for a very long time, over other issues prior to self id, so I’ve never supported Labours position that you object to. But this isn’t the board for centring that discussing, anymore than a communist group would be expected to be inclusive of capitalist issues.

@bothjetplanes thank you so much for saying that.

I and every other Jewish person i know lost lifelong friendships over that.

You can see even on this thread how willing some people are to declare that they openly don't consider antisemitism a problem because it doesn't personally affect them.

'No X if you can't respect my sex'.

I really like this.

[quote BudgeSquare]@bothjetplanes It would be nice to think so, but my personal experience as a Jew in the thick of it (ex Labour member/campaigner etc.) was that it wasn't a deal-breaker for a lot of people, including some of my own (now ex) friends

It was and is very hurtful and frightening to see how many people are seeing labour's current shittiness re gender as a line in the sand, but it's clear that they were OK with them up to this point.

[/quote]
There were a lot of deal breakers for me, and many others as the election showed, about voting Labour under JC, and the anti-semitism was one of them. It was disgraceful. I can understand how hurtful it must have been.

@BloodinGutters

That is exactly my point. You see racism against one particular group as someone else's problem. Not something that needs to concern you in the slightest. Not a dealbreaker.

I'm sure it isn't too much of a stretch to see how that attitude might not make Jewish people feel very secure in our future here.

This is the feminist board. Deals exclusively with issues that impact 51% of us who are women. Not every other groups issues.

@bothjetplanes It would be nice to think so, but my personal experience as a Jew in the thick of it (ex Labour member/campaigner etc.) was that it wasn't a deal-breaker for a lot of people, including some of my own (now ex) friends

It was and is very hurtful and frightening to see how many people are seeing labour's current shittiness re gender as a line in the sand, but it's clear that they were OK with them up to this point.

If the labour candidate had supported women being defined by their sex would have voted for them. But they (and the greens and lib dems) were too cowardly even to reply.

Left-wing/Liberal Jewish people faced this in the last election. almost no-one now agonising about this gave a damn about us. It's really upsetting

I vote conservative now and not ashamed of it either. This is my key issue. Its not even just about self-ID. Its what the fact there is even a debate about this says about the status of women in society.

As a feminist I can never vote Tory. Their underlying principles harm the most vulnerable in society, especially women. Their stance on self-ID, I hugely welcome. Yet it does not come from a position of giving a toss about women's rights but rather comes from a place of small mindedness and intolerance. This strengthens the view point that gender critical feminists are bigots which in the long term harms the cause.

Also this. I've been watching the Blair/Brown documentary just finished on the BBC, and what it reminded me was a. how much Labour actually achieved whilst in power, and b. that there was a time when politicians were serious, credible human beings - the contrast between Gordon B and David Cameron/George Osborne at the end of the series was crushing. So, I'm hoping that sense returns to the Labour Party, I'm afraid.

if genderism is allowed to dominate society at this stage and in the way the proponents of it want then all that progress is set back to some kind of dystopian nightmare where women are a sex resource used for breeding and entertainment, basically right back to where we were. If this sounds hyperbolic, this is already the reality in much of the world now so I really dont think it will take that much. OK it will have a western flavour and be 'sex positive' dontchanow but the actual power position will be exactly the same in the end.

Thanks for putting into words what I've been thinking.

What the TRAs want is the same power dynamic as in Afghanistan between the sexes. Where men get to define women entirely and what they can do and whether or not they have any safety or agency.

Already we see that TWAW but actual biological women aren't allowed to self-ID and are labelled as 'cis' without any consultation about their inner gender identity (I'm agender by the way not 'cis').

It has take literally thousands of years for us to get to the point where women are on the cusp of being almost equal to men in society but we are not there yet.
Misogny is still rife in mens minds and it wont take much to put us back to the dark ages.
My feeling is that women as a sex class achieving equality and respect as human beings equal with men is a massive curve in human history that spans thousands of years, if genderism is allowed to dominate society at this stage and in the way the proponents of it want then all that progress is set back to some kind of dystopian nightmare where women are a sex resource used for breeding and entertainment, basically right back to where we were. If this sounds hyperbolic, this is already the reality in much of the world now so I really dont think it will take that much. OK it will have a western flavour and be 'sex positive' dontchanow but the actual power position will be exactly the same in the end.
Thats why, as someone brought up a full on Marxist, cries at Billy Bragg songs, did not join the LP until Corbin as it was not left enough, knows the words of more than one Woody Gutherie song, I will be voting Tory in the next GE and every other one after that until the other parties can name a woman as a woman.

[quote JustAnotherPoster00]And dont forget, the Tories are on your side even if they blocked the 'upskirting bill'

www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2018/06/meet-christopher-chope-tory-mp-who-blocked-upskirting-ban[/quote]
Christoper Cope objected on the grounds that the bill hadn't had enough scrutiny - it might have been poorly drafted and had unintended consequences. Maybe he is wrong, maybe he is right, maybe he is just an out and out misogynist.

The Tory party responded by making a government bill and it became a crime in 2019 in the Voyeurism (Offences) Act 2019

As a feminist I can never vote Tory. Their underlying principles harm the most vulnerable in society, especially women. Their stance on self-ID, I hugely welcome. Yet it does not come from a position of giving a toss about women's rights but rather comes from a place of small mindedness and intolerance. This strengthens the view point that gender critical feminists are bigots which in the long term harms the cause.

This. Please don't vote Tory if you're doing so because you think it'll make things better for women.