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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Evidence from film, plays, etc of the historical background of casual accepable male violence against transwomen

172 replies

seethesuninwintertime · 01/11/2021 10:31

I am trying to engage more effectively locally and to redirect attention to the real issues transwomen were trying to overcome pre GRA in the hope of highlighting the modern attacks on actual women for what they are i.e. misogny. I'm a great believer that if you gather data and put it on a timeline then it will confess its secrets and show its patterns.

Happy to look at Gender studies literature i.e. stuff written by people I don't agree with.

My tentative hypothesis is that transexuals were a legitimate target of male mockery and male violence until very recently. What I wonder if whether there was always misogyny behind the abuse of transexuals and whether that misogyny has now changed. I wonder if the abuse that was casually directed at transexuals has now been partially redirected at gender critical women but it's the same old thing. I wonder whether all that hatred needed somewhere to go once it became less acceptable to simply mock transsexuals. I dont' know.

Off the top of my head I can think of:
"She-man" in Sopranos series 2
Crocodile Dundee scene where he grabs the transexual's genitals and everyone laughs and mocks
"Rent" (which had a bizarre line about the transsexual being a better woman than other women).
Rocky Horror Show which was how most people born in the 1970s were introduced to transvestism/transexuality.

But someone must have done a phd in this - in fact loads of phds must have been done. so I don't need to reinvent the wheel

In terms of my bona fides, I am a regular but frequently name change.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/11/2021 20:07

Ain't half hot mum - lots of racism and homophobia as was standard in the 70s.

I think that Gloria is a cross dresser rather than trans. Mocked for it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Ain%27t_Half_Hot_Mum

MrsMadderRose · 01/11/2021 19:54

The obvious example we're all forgetting is the episode of The IT Crowd where one of the characters forms a relationship with a woman, who later reveals that she's trans. The character then punches her, and the joke is that she punches him back harder. Now banned by Netflix.

This isn’t right. The male character who dates the TW is the awful cheesy sexist boss, and when he finds out he tries to let the tw down gently initially, then when the TW begs him, he admits it is because of the TW being a TW. Then the TW hits him first, and a fight starts.

It is kind of in poor taste but I also think it makes some perfectly clear and valid points. The man is entitled to dump the TW because he does not want to be with a male or to have been deceived about that. The TW is as violent and aggressive as males typically are - a statistical fact and important point.

eustonwehaveaproblem · 01/11/2021 19:38

@Reptar

I think the issue is far more complex than acceptable public displays of anger and violence; there was also acceptable covert use of drag artists and cross dressers by men's clubs.

An example is shown in Prime Suspect series 3, Keeper of Souls. Organisations such as the police and Freemasons used to organize men's nights, that hired drag acts to entertain.
IMO most men don't hate drag artists or cross dressers; more that they expect them to know their place and will punish them for stepping out of line. Thats a feature of hierarchical systems.
Also IMO patriarchy is a special hierarchical system based on sex. When men remove women from the public sphere, they seem to create a special class of men to play that role.

Very astute point, with strong links to the Bacha bazi :(
CrossPurposes · 01/11/2021 19:32

One of the problems with that Wikipedia list is that several of them isn't about a trans anything. Albert Nobbs is about women living as men as a means of betterment. And several of the other films are about men in drag who would not consider themselves as transwomen.

Wildfart · 01/11/2021 19:02

scholarworks.bgsu.edu/acs_diss/62/

A paper on depiction from the 1950s to 2009

I'm sure there's more recent papers.

BitMuch · 01/11/2021 18:51

people who - irrespective of whether they are pretending - might deceive a heterosexual male into having sex with them. Which is the Worst Thing You Can Do.

Is the dividing line between those who are depicted as deserving of violence and those who aren't - is it the place where the alpha male might be displaced/lose his identity through being deceived into having sex with another man?

But I suspect the study of historic male violence patterns towards transwomen pre GRA would teach a lot about the backlash against gender critical women now.

Rape by deception is a serious crime. Of course rape is an incredibly bad thing to do. Flippancy towards the humiliation rape victims feel is strange.

We have no evidence that people who commit violence against their rapists, like www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/battered-bruised-first-look-serial-21754936.amp, Lorena Bobbit or Aileen Wuornos, are more likely to commit violence against anyone else.

In regards to the fictional examples, we know Graham Linehan, the author of the IT crowd fight scene between two men, is a GC man with no violent record who is an ally of feminists and transexuals. I don't see any link there.

We have had more censorship of comedy to avoid offending transvestites in recent years. We have also seen greater violence against feminists, women and anyone who disagrees, like Maria Maclachlan being beaten up, the Wi Spa stabbings and Netflix protest attack. The man who smashed a man's head against concrete at the Netflix protest sure felt emboldened by the support of censorship of comedy by his fellow protestors. I suggest we try more comedy, more understanding of nuance and less censorship of writers and comedians instead. The current approach hasn't worked so far.

Wildfart · 01/11/2021 18:49

@seethesuninwintertime

Vanishun - thank you!

count me in for the Pedro Almovodar film! have never seen it.

Spoiler alert

That's quite a manipulative movie too.

Man fancies lesbian. Pesters her for dates. She's a lesbianHmm

Man gets kidnapped by a mad doctor who gives him genital surgery. I forgot why.

Man escapes, goes back to lesbian and... Happy every after

Shock
seethesuninwintertime · 01/11/2021 18:44

ooh ooh ooh!

you can click on the wikipedia link and put them in chronological order within the page!

Well that's m netflix viewing sorted for the next 12 months.....

OP posts:
seethesuninwintertime · 01/11/2021 18:41

so I think what would be really cool would be to

  • put all these in chronological order
-watch them with popcorn see if there are emerging themes/trends and observe how these change over time.

One slight issue with using Vanishun's link is that it is intended as celebratory - the great march of history towards transgender equality. They even attempt to repurpose the LIfe of Brian thing which is frankly a bit optimistic!
Whereas I'm looking for a different reason - to find another piece in the jigsaw of reasons why my own protected group is getting so much trouble/hassle.

OP posts:
seethesuninwintertime · 01/11/2021 18:37

Vanishun - thank you!

count me in for the Pedro Almovodar film! have never seen it.

OP posts:
Wildfart · 01/11/2021 18:30

My observations on this are about two big shows in recent years which overtly presented women as the aggressors.

Orange is the new black was slanted towards a harmless male (in for financial crime so "victimless") who is given a difficult time by women not being happy about the showers.

Transparent features a woman yelling at the trans parent in the loos. Michfest is depicted quite manipulatively.

I think these two shows have had a big impact on making out women to be bigots.

BethnalGreenBambinos · 01/11/2021 17:53

There was a 2015 BBC 2 series called "Boy Meets Girl" about a relationship between a man and a transwoman. It was a "gentle comedy". There was an incident of a couple of men in a pub obviously making fun of them.

PuppyMonkey · 01/11/2021 17:50

I remember the film Dog Day Afternoon from the early 1970s, which is a great heist film - but essentially Al Pacino is robbing the bank to pay for his boyfriend’s sex change operation. Haven’t seen it for ages but it would be interesting to see how this theme was treated - like jokey or not!? I can’t remember!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/11/2021 17:29

@seethesuninwintertime

" RoyalCorgi: Little Britain was very unpleasant, though Matt Lucas has now done a 180 degree about turn. Conveniently."

"it's encouraging that people can learn and change"

I think that's very interesting. Are men learning and changing or is there an inbuilt disgust with non-men that means their hatred has to go somewhere (and middle aged women have a bit of a history of being the target of it don't we?).

I suspect in Matt Lucas’s case it was based on knowing anything other than complete agreement to TWAW would be career suicide.
Bordois · 01/11/2021 17:23

Cross Post with crossPurposes!

Bordois · 01/11/2021 17:22

I don't think I've ever seen a female attracted transwoman ("trans lesbian") in any popular culture thing

Sens8 had a transwoman character in a relationship with a woman, but that was the most "normal" relationship in the series 😬

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 01/11/2021 17:20

Danny La Rue.

Another particularly British darling. Google him and prepare to be a teensy bit gobsmacked.

CrossPurposes · 01/11/2021 17:20

One of the main characters in Sense8 (on Netflix) is a transwoman in a relationship with a woman. Sense8 was co-created by the Wachowskis.

Deliriumoftheendless · 01/11/2021 17:09

It was 2005.

Vanishun · 01/11/2021 17:08

Does this help with the general list OP?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listofftransgendercharacterssin_film

seethesuninwintertime · 01/11/2021 17:05

can't see what year that Simpsons episode was?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/11/2021 16:55

I don't think I've ever seen a female attracted transwoman ("trans lesbian") in any popular culture thing

There was one in the Simpsons.

https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/LeslieRobinn_Swisher

seethesuninwintertime · 01/11/2021 16:54

fair point blazeaway.

OP posts:
dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 01/11/2021 16:25

@Nemorth

What about Mrs Brown's Boys? The main character is a woman but the actor is male. That's current!
Yes that is on the same level as Les Dawson's sketches but the content of what they say may differ a lot. I can't really remember but I think Les Dawson was doing Mother-in-law jokes when a straight man and anti-husband (men) jokes when dressed as a woman but probably poking fun at both sexes. My Grandma definitely liked Les Dawson. Dick Emery used to do drag as well and it was family viewing I think on at about 6pm. Wow we were exposed to a lot of drag in the 1970s.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 01/11/2021 15:48

@applesandpears33

Going back a bit, there was Corporal Klinger in MASH. There was some mockery of the cross dressing.
Many layered too.

As in he was the worst, he wore a dress to be sent home unfit for duty. A man wanting to be feminine was weird enough to get him sectioned.

Everyone else just saw Klinger in a dress...

... and balanced against all the female Drs and nurses in the MASH unit.

Lots more social commentary going in than a simple 'use of transwoman' to make a point.

And nobody beat him up because of it!

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