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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

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KatieAlcock · 31/10/2021 14:28

[quote GuidingSpirit]@KatieAlcock a one second click on the name of the poster on that facebook thread calling themselves Little Owl shows that they have been married since 2012 and so clearly not a young leader. 🙄

You have your agenda (which you push all over any MN thread relating to Girlguiding) but you undermine yourself when you make such untrue statements.

In any case, young leaders have to do safe space level 1 and 2, so the second sentence in your post is also not accurate.[/quote]
Well, in that case she's an adult who should know EVEN BETTER not to publicise her sexuality where her Brownies can see it.

WarriorN · 31/10/2021 14:02

@RepentMotherfucker

I'm positive it's the same for boy scouts. It must be, right?

Otherwise this would all be massively sexist Hmm

According to twitter they observed "non binary day." Not much else other than a lot of actually very interesting stuff to do with the out doors, bear grylls and a baby beaver.

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WarriorN · 31/10/2021 14:00

@DdraigGoch

Why would a child saying that they feel they might be asexual a safeguarding issue? *@vinsurvin* any form of sexual awareness at too young an age should be considered a red flag. If you hear a kid say something you wouldn't expect a kid to know, you ask "how did they know that word?" It has happened that a ten year old has declared to a class that they were asexual, the teacher held them back afterwards and discovered that they were the victim in a CSE ring.

For a child to know they're asexual there needs to have been conversation about what being sexual is and I'd be very surprised if it didn't include a range of other sexualities other than LGB. Polyamarous, demisexual, aromantic etc.

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terryleather · 31/10/2021 13:39

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Isn't telling a girl that she can still have sex even if she doesn't have any sexual desire a bit....rapey?
I would say so...
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 31/10/2021 13:33

Isn't telling a girl that she can still have sex even if she doesn't have any sexual desire a bit....rapey?

RepentMotherfucker · 31/10/2021 13:26

I'm positive it's the same for boy scouts. It must be, right?

Otherwise this would all be massively sexist Hmm

Datun · 31/10/2021 13:20

@NewlyGranny

Is this sort of sexualised theme a focus in Scouting, too?
Yes, are they being told that asexuality is a sexual orientation, but they can still have sex even though they don't feel any desire, and look at these provocative pictures of asexual boys showing their bodies in a sexy way?
NewlyGranny · 31/10/2021 13:15

Is this sort of sexualised theme a focus in Scouting, too?

NewlyGranny · 31/10/2021 13:12

Many 10-14 year olds are sexually active?! They are victims of CSA if any other person is involved, then!

DdraigGoch · 31/10/2021 12:45

Why would a child saying that they feel they might be asexual a safeguarding issue?
@vinsurvin any form of sexual awareness at too young an age should be considered a red flag. If you hear a kid say something you wouldn't expect a kid to know, you ask "how did they know that word?" It has happened that a ten year old has declared to a class that they were asexual, the teacher held them back afterwards and discovered that they were the victim in a CSE ring.

Datun · 31/10/2021 11:51

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

If my teenage daughter, for whatever reason, doesn't feel any flickering of interest in either sex, I do not want any links she follows from Girl Guides to encourage her that she should still value herself according to how appealing she is to the male gaze.

Angry

Quite. Is there nothing that these bloody organisations and people won't do to sexualise girls?
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 31/10/2021 11:49

I'm sure lots of girls go to Girl Guides to get away from talking about feckin sex all the time! They are bombarded with it at the moment it seems.

Who you are attracted to, how you identify sexually, what label you attach to yourself. What about girls who just want to get away from all that?

I remember being at an all girls school and even in the 90s, sex was everywhere. Who was doing it with who, who was a lesbian or bi, who had done what and with who. I was quite glad to get away from it at things like Guides and other hobbies.

And it seems like it's even worse these days.

WarriorN · 31/10/2021 11:45

Not garbled, and covers areas for adults to discuss. And yes, Kingsley...

Re the photo of lingerie, also, girls are very affected by social media influences.

Is also worry that therein lays confusion over sex too, "I don't like the lingerie and showing my curves, perhaps I'm trans?" Which is exactly how a teen has put it to my teaching friend in a middle school (the gg age range.)

There's also issues around the impact of abuse and trauma leading to not wanting physical relationships. This is out of Gg's depth.

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/10/2021 11:39

If my teenage daughter, for whatever reason, doesn't feel any flickering of interest in either sex, I do not want any links she follows from Girl Guides to encourage her that she should still value herself according to how appealing she is to the male gaze.

Angry
FrancescaContini · 31/10/2021 11:25

I can’t imagine there are ANY parents who send their daughters to GG would be remotely happy with this sexualised BS being bandied about.

The girls who go should be playing rounders /putting up tents / having fun. They’re children.

MidCenturyClegs · 31/10/2021 11:24

@thevassal

I agree with *@vinsurin* that a lot of the posts on this thread are very offensive. Replace asexual with gay,or sexually attracted to a different race, and posts suggesting being asexual stops you from being physically healthy or is only because you were traumatised as a child read disgustingly.

I usually agree with lots of the threads on this board and would agree with this one if it was aimed at rainbows or brownies - but guides are for girls aged 10-14, many of whom will be sexually active (if not having full sex) and experiencing sexual or romantic feelings. In which case I don't think it's inappropriate for them to learn about asexuality in the same way it wouldn't be appropriate for them to learn about being gay, bisexuality or lesbian. Of course it is bizarre for a 6 year old to label themselves as asexual but I think it might actually be useful for a 13 or 14 year old who is wondering why she isn't experiencing the same crushes and feelings as her friends and wondering if there is something wrong with her (although according to posters on this board there is!)

As a pp pointed out, we live in an overwhelmingly sexualised world, which can be particularly intimidating for girls. If they are not sure about who they like, saying they think they are asexual for a few years gives them an 'out' from otherwise constant discussion of which you fancy, what you've done with them etc I remember from my own teen years while they figure it out- does it matter? It might actually be a good thing for girls who feel a bit overwhelmed with it all. Unlike being trans nobody is prescribing blockers or surgery to kids who say they are asexual, so what harm is it causing?

'Many 10 to 14 year olds are sexually active'? And this is ok?

MumofAceDD · 31/10/2021 11:22

Sorry a bit garbled as rushing

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/10/2021 11:22

[quote Helen8220]@WarriorN
”and finally Yasmin again in her lingerie with breasts hanging out
Confusing to say the least.”

I realise this was a quote from someone else, but I think it’s important to point out that there is nothing confusing at all about a woman wearing clothing that is perceived to be ‘sexy’ while saying she does not want - or is not interested in - sex. She can wear whatever she wants to without any conclusions being drawn about her interest (or otherwise) in having sex.[/quote]
No, there isn't anything confusing about it.

It's quite clear.

From that picture of the underwear, asexuality means "I am not interested in having sex, but I believe being found sexually attractive will grant me social power and respect. So I want that, and I hope saying identifying as asexual will grant me the social power while designating me as unattainable, excusing me from pressure from men to have sex with them. I either have zero interest in feminism and breaking down our society's assumption that a woman's worth rests in whether she looks fuckable or zero faith that it can be done"

MumofAceDD · 31/10/2021 11:21

PumpkinGin I would like to respond in a longer way but I need to get ready to go out.

In short, my view is - speaking of adults (including young adults) with my DD in mind because that is my main experience - that asexual people have probably gone through a long period of confusion and are well able to know in their own minds whether the definition of asexuality applies to them. Equally, people who experience ISD are probably also able to recognise themselves in the ISD definition. They should have access to resources and support, including medical if needed. But the key point is that it is a matter for the individuals concerned, who are adults, not anyone else, to say, unless they have specifically sought advice around it.

Also important I think is that there is a clear lack of research into asexuality. So if we think that sexology and sexual science began in the late 19th century with a focus on hetero and homosexuality, and one of the largest ever surveys on sexuality in the mid-20th century (Kinsey’s) put people who would fit the definition of asexual into a column marked X and did not investigate further, and that gay rights and acceptance of gay equality is more recent still (into the 20th century), then it is not difficult to see why there is so much misunderstanding and prejudice about asexuality. It is genuinely not part of the cultural discourse (and so when GG mention it, it is not only out of place because an organisation for children, but because it does not have a place in our culture, hope that makes sense). It is not even as if it has an uncontested place in Pride, many people would argue asexuality is not an orientation, it is an absence, and asexual people have not been persecuted, so don’t belong their either.

I need to go, but just a footnote that I also think Kinsey is problematic for a whole host of reasons, but that is a separate debate.

PumpkinGin · 31/10/2021 11:17

Warrior, I agree. It seems very complex.

One is a sexual orientation, the other is a medical/mental issue.

One needs to be respected and gain more awareness, the other needs investigation.

I don’t think any of the two acronyms (ACE or ISD) seems to benefit from over sexualised lingerie but adults are free to buy whatever they like.

But this should not be pushed by girl guides. No sexual conversation should be initiated by a random adult. It should only be done by parents or PSHE under strict safeguarding controls.

As for whether the adults initiating this discussion are young leaders or older leader, it is probably even more chilling with older as they should know better. But this discussion should never be initiated with children.

I would never initiate a conversation about sex with my children’s friends (8, 10). Do not some posters realise how inappropriate and wrong that would be?

If we had a child (8 or 10) over that initiated any sexual conversation with me (thank god this has never happened) I would be horrified. I would answer very non-committing and think carefully about whether I should approach the mum or the school’s head of pastoral. Probably depending on what was said.

OvaHere · 31/10/2021 11:15

Why is it more important for this to be marketed at girls?

That's what I'm wondering. The focus seems to be all on girls and women but if asexual is an orientation as Stonewall and other orgs are saying then there should be an equivalent amount of boys and men who are devoid of sexual feeling or response to any kind of stimuli (that isn't caused by a medical or disabling condition). Much easier to study in males too.

WarriorN · 31/10/2021 11:05

Pumpkin it's clear from what you looked up that there's different interpretations of asexuality, and as you say, can be linked to medical issues.

This is an important distinction between what some have discussed here of their own experiences and what's being pushed online and actually potentially in schools via some external teaching materials and charities.

Gg are not adequately trained in discussions around this.

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GuidingSpirit · 31/10/2021 11:02

@KatieAlcock a one second click on the name of the poster on that facebook thread calling themselves Little Owl shows that they have been married since 2012 and so clearly not a young leader. 🙄

You have your agenda (which you push all over any MN thread relating to Girlguiding) but you undermine yourself when you make such untrue statements.

In any case, young leaders have to do safe space level 1 and 2, so the second sentence in your post is also not accurate.

WarriorN · 31/10/2021 11:01

But this is the content around "ace identity" online.

Pushing kink too.

It seems akin to how girl's clothes are heavily targeted with submissive and sexualised messages. 'Yeah, you can be ace but also wear all this lingerie and fit into the pornified gender stereotypes for girls and women.

I note the scouts do not seem to have celebrated ace week either.

Why is it more important for this to be marketed at girls?

What's the agenda?

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PumpkinGin · 31/10/2021 10:58

Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

Random adults should not initiate sexual discussions with other people’s primary school aged children. It is a safeguarding issue.

I am inspired by the Cato above. I feel like polishing my own statement and add it to every single post I make on this board.