Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Ace week" in girl guiding.

392 replies

WarriorN · 30/10/2021 11:33

What fresh hell....

Thankfully a number of posters really not impressed. Worrying number think it's entirely appropriate Hmm

https://www.facebook.com/girlguidinguk/photos/a.398392309681/10158689026444682/?type=3

But it was worth reading it to find this excellent analysis of "Ace" identity and issues around it.

bryndisb.substack.com/p/asexuality-queering-the-mundane

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
NewlyGranny · 03/11/2021 08:10

I guess the flag could be vanilla stripes on a vanilla background? I love vanilla - it is a highly prized, fragrant spice with a distinctive flavour, not an absence of anything interesting.

NewlyGranny · 03/11/2021 08:08

Are we starting to need a label, a flag, a lengthy description and a spectrum diagram for people who first get to know someone, then fancy them, fall in love and start a relationship?

I'm feeling a bit underprivileged and endangered without all that right now!

Sittinginthesand · 03/11/2021 07:13

IMO the rebranding of asexuality as ‘ace’ is a bit of a red flag in itself, I’m not sure I can put my finger on why though.
I also seem to remember an ages old interview with Rolf Harris talking about not really having sexual feelings.

Helleofabore · 03/11/2021 06:57

Thank you 2fallsfromSSA that is a great letter.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/11/2021 06:55

That's a really good letter.

Covers everything we have all worried about on this thread.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/11/2021 06:46

This part of the letter really got to me:

He can use the cover of “I am an asexual so I have no sexual desire” to give the child a false sense of reassurance while he continues to groom her (or him). He can touch her without her worrying that it is a sexual touch.

CousinKrispy · 03/11/2021 06:42

Thank you SSA.

Clymene · 03/11/2021 06:16

That's a great letter from SSA. Thank you for sharing and I hope GGUK takes you up on the offer of a meeting. It feels as if they are hopelessly out of their depth

Datun · 03/11/2021 04:27

Excellent letter. Really spells it out.

Unbelievable that a children's organisation is so ignorant about this. What on earth has gone wrong?

Organisations must operate a culture of vigilance, where concerns are taken seriously. And if there are cries of ‘racist’, ‘homophobe’, ‘transphobe’ and ‘pearl-clutchers’, we must all remember that these are recognised silencing techniques, and are to be ignored.

TedImgoingmad · 02/11/2021 23:51

[quote 2fallsfromSSA]SSAhas issued a statement detailing out Safeguarding concerns which we will also be sending to GIrl guiding.

We want them to meet with us to discuss our concerns.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2021/11/02/girl-guiding-and-asexuality/?fbclid=IwAR1w0JHcw7XoiRSOtMfRhWD5VI4UhPm6J2QdO_JnLQJ11B5cn9TqTXuLDJQ[/quote]
As a GG leader, thank you for doing this.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/11/2021 23:11

[quote 2fallsfromSSA]SSAhas issued a statement detailing out Safeguarding concerns which we will also be sending to GIrl guiding.

We want them to meet with us to discuss our concerns.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2021/11/02/girl-guiding-and-asexuality/?fbclid=IwAR1w0JHcw7XoiRSOtMfRhWD5VI4UhPm6J2QdO_JnLQJ11B5cn9TqTXuLDJQ[/quote]
That's an excellent and informative response from SSA. Even the most ignorant about safeguarding guider should be able to understand that.
Well done.

2fallsfromSSA · 02/11/2021 23:00

SSAhas issued a statement detailing out Safeguarding concerns which we will also be sending to GIrl guiding.

We want them to meet with us to discuss our concerns.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2021/11/02/girl-guiding-and-asexuality/?fbclid=IwAR1w0JHcw7XoiRSOtMfRhWD5VI4UhPm6J2QdO_JnLQJ11B5cn9TqTXuLDJQ

FrancescaContini · 02/11/2021 20:25

@HeddaAga

*Why does a Girl Guide need to have a fixed sexual orientation at 10, 12, or even 14? * Because there's an industry in it for DV&I charities and organisations that depend on ever younger kids being part of their audience, for the money. Organisations everywhere shilling for big Stonewall et al.
I really really hope that the time will come very very soon whereby some investigative journalists “join up all the dots” and start looking into this scandal and bring it into the public arena. I think that the BBC podcast on Stonewall was definitely a much-needed step in this direction but there needs to be more now.
HeddaAga · 02/11/2021 18:22

*Why does a Girl Guide need to have a fixed sexual orientation at 10, 12, or even 14?
*
Because there's an industry in it for DV&I charities and organisations that depend on ever younger kids being part of their audience, for the money. Organisations everywhere shilling for big Stonewall et al.

Helleofabore · 02/11/2021 14:20

Fine to say "and some people don't want to date, fall in love, get married at all" but I don't see how it's necessary to tie that to a sexual orientation.

Yes. This is exactly it.

There are adults posting on this thread that probably have absolutely no idea of the amount of pressure due to many external sources (many were not even around popular with that age group 5 years ago but are now) for this age group to 'define' themselves early and attach labels to fit in. Sexual orientation is one of those labels.

Or if they understand that this age group have this pressure, they are absolutely fine with this pressure. Why? Why does a Girl Guide need to have a fixed sexual orientation at 10, 12, or even 14?

It is not appropriate for GG leaders to be discussing this in any depth of specificity with this age group. If a child comes to them for advice, these leaders need to also be hugely conscious of the responsibility to respond to that child with facts and impartiality. A simple "and some people don't want to date, fall in love, get married at all" is all that is needed by a GG leader. If there is a need for safeguarding, that needs to be also addressed.

There is a different between highlighting family types to discussing sexual orientation from a personal perspective. I know that our GG leader for my teen, would have not been equipped with the appropriate training to address this issue.

CousinKrispy · 02/11/2021 13:48

Thanks for sharing your experiences, MeganKi. I guess I am a type of asexual too as I could define myself as demisexual, which TBH I privately consider just being an emotionally healthy human being, rather than a sexual orientation, though I realize it's not my place to judge people who enjoy sex without emotional connection.

I'm still concerned that GG is not the appropriate venue for this. The problem with teaching kids about asexuality in a way that doesn't reference sexual acts or feelings, is that boiling it down to "and some people don't like anyone!" just doesn't sound accurate to me. Again, homosexuality can be described fairly accurately in terms of relatiinships--"some men marry/fall in love with/go on dates with other men."

Saying "like" is too unspecific as kids might use like in its general sense, "I like Jessica because she's my friend, but I don't like Susan anymore, she took my favourite pencil." Don't you have to get into clarifying this? "Oh I didn't mean like as in friends, I meant LIKE like, like boyfriends and girlfriends, like dating."

Fine to say "and some people don't want to date, fall in love, get married at all" but I don't see how it's necessary to tie that to a sexual orientation.

Some people won't want to pair up for a variety of reasons, not just because they are ace.

Some ace people might in fact get married or have sex, according to what you're telling us.

Maybe don't put ace in a box. Just explain to kids that having a variety of family types and friendships and relationships is no big deal, including being on your own if that's what you prefer.

KatieAlcock · 02/11/2021 13:00

@ShadesOfMagenta

This is going to be covered on LBC Tom Swarbrick 10pm - 1am Mon night - just heard it trailed at the start of the program!!

@KatieAlcock

I missed your post but will have to catch up at some point (manic week here for many reasons).
Helleofabore · 02/11/2021 12:42

@Fetarabbit

The issue for me is more whether girl guides is the appropriate place and forum for any adults to be speaking and 'educating' about sexual preferences of any kind. There is no escape from bombardment for children everywhere about labels, and it's not about raising awareness and tolerance it's feels beyond that now.
There is absolutely no need to be discussing this with 14 year old and younger past a 'it is normal to also not know as a person your age'.

This is adults putting their needs ahead of a child's.

TheWeeDonkey · 02/11/2021 12:38

[quote NecessaryScene]As surface-level things, like definitions of terms, become less and less clear, the underlying patterns become more obvious.

twitter.com/Slatzism/status/1453456960846708744[/quote]
Oh wow 💡I honestly never thought of it this way before.

TedImgoingmad · 02/11/2021 12:35

Just…WHY??

Follow the money.

FrancescaContini · 02/11/2021 12:27

@KittenKong

When you work with children there are some things/topics that if a child brings it up, a red light goes off in your head.

Sexuality is one of these things. The GG is not there to educate children on such issues. Who is driving this? There must be someone at HQ who is suggesting these themes?

Yes, exactly. Couldn’t agree more. Just…WHY??
Datun · 02/11/2021 11:57

@MeganKi

As an asexual person myself I'm very disappointed by some of the posts on this thread.

There seems to be a lot of conflating of talking about asexuality, and talking about sex, as in the act of sexual intercourse. These aren't the same at all. I of course completely agree that teaching about the latter should be done only by parents or by teachers with appropriate safeguarding, but its perfectly possible to say to even a young child "some people like men, some people like women, some people like both, some people like none". In my opinion certainly by age 14 a girl (or boy) should already have been taught atleast this.

Honestly the conflation of teaching about asexuality and teaching about sexual acts has the same logic to it that stopped for so many years teaching that gay people exist - that teaching a child that some men like other men, or that some women like other women, would somehow have to involve teaching them about the details of gay sex at an inappropriate age, or that this would somehow influence straight kids into identifying as gay. Please let's not make the same mistake again for this generation of ace people.

I wish there had been support for ace people like this when I was younger. I'm 23 now, but when I was younger there was absolutely nothing to tell me that asexuality even existed. I remember actually reading something about asexuality, maybe on tumblr or someplace, when I was around 12 years old (not an unusual age for aces to figure out our orientation), but since there wasn't family, friends or teachers there to back this up I didn't believe it was real. I spent years getting pressured to be attracted to men, and I didn't properly acknowledge myself as ace till I went to university and met people from the LGBT+ club when I was 19.

There's a lot of misconceptions and misinformation about asexuality on this thread, I would recommend to seek out ace websites and resources that will address some of these myths. But to address a couple of the common ones here:

"Ace people have hormone imbalances / are that way because of abuse" - these are some of the most harmful myths about asexuality, echoing the old ideas that gay people are mentally ill or are gay because of suffering CSA.

Hormones can ofcourse affect sex drive, but I think it would be extremely unlikely for someone to conclude they're asexual - an inborn sexual orientation - because of this. In my time in the ace community, a vast majority of people have been ace as long as they have been aware of their sexuality. Atleast in most circumstances, it's the way we are born just like people are born gay, Bi or straight, not a medical issue or a result of trauma.

"Ace people don't face any issues" - while certainly almost no ace person would compare our struggle to the much greater one of gay and Bi people, we live in a society where wanting and having (heterosexual) sex and relationships is not only normalised, but often pressured, and this creates a lot of problems for ace people in our lives.

"Why would an ace person have sex?" - I understand this can be a complicated topic to understand, which may contribute to some of the ideas upthread that there's some bad agenda behind people saying this. In reality though, within the ace community it's generally agreed that there are various reasons why an ace person might consensually have sex. This could include, for example, being in a relationship with a non-ace person and wanting to feel close to them even in the absence of sexual attraction, or ace people who have a libido (many do; its not the same thing as sexual attraction). Again, there's a lot of resources written by ace people explaining the nuances of this so I would recommend searching for them.

Thanks for your post. And I know it will prompt lots of questions.

I just want to check I have this right. You can have a libido, ie feel horny, and have this satisfied by a sexual partner. The only difference is you don't feel 'sexual attraction'. What is sexual attraction in this context?

Does it mean you're not aroused by looking at your partner. You want sex, it satisfies your libido, but visually there's no phwoar, as it were?

Because that is very common.

Often men will have a far more physical reaction to the visual than women. Hence the coy 'men's magazines'.

I wondering whether young women are judging themselves based on a more male sexuality? And feeling the need to label something which has been considered fairly mainstream up to now.

KittenKong · 02/11/2021 11:21

When you work with children there are some things/topics that if a child brings it up, a red light goes off in your head.

Sexuality is one of these things. The GG is not there to educate children on such issues. Who is driving this? There must be someone at HQ who is suggesting these themes?

PumpkinGin · 02/11/2021 11:17

I am very happy to be understanding of any label and I also respect people and hope they feel validated by that.

But my children are not a validation tool. And I worry about safeguarding. And these discussions should not happen in GG.

FemaleAndLearning · 02/11/2021 11:13

This is all so confusing when the word no or the phrase mind your own business will seem to suffice.

Swipe left for the next trending thread