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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this Deputy head accused of rape a man or woman?

88 replies

MissyB1 · 29/10/2021 14:39

Genuinely confused. BBC report on their website today - sorry can never successfully link from their app.
It’s about a school deputy head from Wigan called Julie Morris who is in court on child abuse and sex abuse charges - including two counts of rape. Her co accused is a man called David Morris. They are both accused of a horrific string of crimes, but it specifically says Julie is accused of rape.
Correct me if I’m getting this wrong but can women be charged with rape? I didn’t think so, but maybe they can if it relates to a child? 🤔

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Yaya26 · 23/12/2021 00:27

@BloodinGutters I am so sorry. I hope that life is good for you now and wish you every happiness in the future. Xxxxx

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 00:00

The BBC report has the charges against her male partner too, even more of them , and he's got a somewhat longer sentence. But the headline is just about her.

Julie Morris: Wigan deputy head teacher jailed for raping girl www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-59754035

CovidisaThiefofJoyandcandoone · 22/12/2021 23:43

Good news slipper.

Blood was your mother ever brought to justice?

MissMinutes24 · 22/12/2021 23:43

@CatNameChange101

Sentenced today.

Julie Morris admitted two counts of rape, nine of inciting a child under the age of 13 to engage in sexual activity and two of engaging in sexual activity in the presence of a child.
She also admitted three counts of taking indecent images of a child, one of engaging in sexual communication with a child and one of possessing indecent images of a child.

Haven't RTFT so maybe this has already been answered but my understanding is that under the UK law of "joint enterprise" a woman can be convicted of rape if she assists a man in raping someone.

But there will always have to be a man who did the raping for any woman to ever be convicted.

"Joint enterprise is a doctrine of criminal law which permits two or more defendants to be convicted of the same criminal offence in relation to the same incident, even where they had different types or levels of involvement in the incident."

It was introduced for situations like a gang stabbing where it is unknown who was the person who actually thrust the blade into the victim - it meant that all the relevant defendants could still be prosecuted rather than relying on the ambiguity to mean all of them go free.

CatNameChange101 · 22/12/2021 21:16

Sentenced today.

Julie Morris admitted two counts of rape, nine of inciting a child under the age of 13 to engage in sexual activity and two of engaging in sexual activity in the presence of a child.
She also admitted three counts of taking indecent images of a child, one of engaging in sexual communication with a child and one of possessing indecent images of a child.

BloodinGutters · 18/11/2021 14:33

[quote SlipperTripper]@BloodinGutters sorry to resurrect the thread, but I wanted to let you know - my DSDs mum and step dad were sentenced this week. They both got lengthy prison sentences and long prohibition orders.

It's no justice, but it's something.

Thank you again for your words on this thread x[/quote]
I don’t know what to say!

But I’m glad at least they were sentenced.

& hugs to you all xx

SlipperTripper · 18/11/2021 14:29

@BloodinGutters sorry to resurrect the thread, but I wanted to let you know - my DSDs mum and step dad were sentenced this week. They both got lengthy prison sentences and long prohibition orders.

It's no justice, but it's something.

Thank you again for your words on this thread x

BloodinGutters · 31/10/2021 09:20

[quote Onyernelly]@BloodinGutters your posts are incredibly powerful. I really do hope you work in the protection of others. We really need people with your insight. Flowers[/quote]
I don’t now. But I did.

Now I just dedicate my time to arguing with schools to follow d of e & safeguard my girls. It’s practically a full time job they are so damn stubborn & blind!

Ty x

Onyernelly · 31/10/2021 09:10

@BloodinGutters your posts are incredibly powerful. I really do hope you work in the protection of others. We really need people with your insight. Flowers

prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 16:36

all the reporting does suggest she’s been charged with two counts of rape

Quite a few of the reports I've seen suggest she's been charged with aiding and abetting, so I'm not sure.

She can be charged with statutory rape of a minor

There is no such offence in the UK. In England and Wales the offence is rape of a child under 13 but, as with rape of an adult, that normally requires the offender to be in possession of a penis.

NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 16:14

@Auntieobem

She can be charged with statutory rape of a minor
In which country? Hmm
KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 15:52

It's being given prominence for the reasons you give.

There have been several recent cases of appalling sexual abuse by women of very young children for commercial gain which haven't made it past local papers.

Auntieobem · 30/10/2021 15:50

She can be charged with statutory rape of a minor

JaniceBattersby · 30/10/2021 15:36

The press are emphasising her role becasue of her position of responsibility in a school and the fact it is very unusual for a woman to be charged with rape (and all the reporting does suggest she’s been charged with two counts of rape, so I would guess joint enterprise, although I’m not a lawyer)

Hundreds of men are charged with rape every day. In 20 years working in the courts I’ve never seen a woman appear on a rape charge. Its unusual nature means its newsworthy.

It’s most likely they’re showing her picture because they have a picture of her, but not of him. I guess he’s not on social media and is not any kind of public figure. Sometimes pictures can’t be used for legal reasons where identity might be an issue at trial.

KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 15:26

[quote prh47bridge]@KimikosNightmare - as has been pointed out several times on this thread, a woman can be convicted of rape on the joint enterprise principle. There must be a man involved but, if a woman actively assists the man, she can also be convicted of rape.[/quote]
Indeed I had pointed exactly that out yesterday- well before the erroneous post made by onelittlefrog.

prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 15:19

@KimikosNightmare - as has been pointed out several times on this thread, a woman can be convicted of rape on the joint enterprise principle. There must be a man involved but, if a woman actively assists the man, she can also be convicted of rape.

prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 15:16

@Voice0fReason

This is a horrific story.

What is interesting is the way that it is being reported. The focus is almost entirely on her. He, the man who actually carried out the rapes, is almost an afterthought. That's not to minimise her role, but the press coverage that I have seen minimises his role.

It is incredibly rare for a woman to do this, sadly though it does happen.

I don't think the press are minimising his role. After all, we don't have any details yet as to what allegedly happened. He has pleaded guilty, she is a deputy head teacher with safeguarding responsibilities and she is photogenic. That is why the reports are primarily about her.
KimikosNightmare · 30/10/2021 12:04

@onelittlefrog

The definition of rape in the law is that it involves penetration.

A woman can rape someone if she penetrates them - this does not have to be with a penis, it could be with an object.

So yes a woman can be charged with rape, but this does not happen very often. If a woman sexually assaults somebody it doesn't usually come under "rape".

I think they were looking at changing the definition but it's very complex for many reasons.

Perhaps you are not in the UK but what you have stated is wrong under all jurisdictions in the UK.

Rape is penetration of vagina, mouth or anus by a penis A trans man can commit rape if they have had genital surgery to form a penis.

Penetration by a man or a woman ,by any other body part , or by an object is sexual assault by penetration.

The only circumstances a woman can be charged with rape is if they are actually a trans man with a surgically modified penis or if they have been complicit in assisting a person with a penis to commit rape.

Voice0fReason · 30/10/2021 11:51

This is a horrific story.

What is interesting is the way that it is being reported. The focus is almost entirely on her. He, the man who actually carried out the rapes, is almost an afterthought. That's not to minimise her role, but the press coverage that I have seen minimises his role.

It is incredibly rare for a woman to do this, sadly though it does happen.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 10:38

[quote SlipperTripper]@BloodinGutters, thank you for sharing. You genuinely have no idea how much your posts have meant.

I've read them a little shakily, you're absolutely right, thank god, that women like your mother are very few and far between. However we are due in court in not long at all (won't say exactly when, may be a bit outing!) to hear the sentencing of my DSDs mother and her partner, who has put them through a very experience to yours.

Everything you said about your mother, from the cult-like following, to the pristine house, good job (with children!) and power trip over people has rung true about theirs, you could have been talking about her, and I'm sat here crying into my tea wondering what the fuck is wrong with people.

Reading your words has given me some hope though. I look at my girls and my heart breaks, they are so emotionally upside down and some days it's hard to see how they'll every find a way though it. I worry constantly for their futures, and how this will impact them as they grow up, but I am so desperate for them to be able to realise that it was NEVER their fault, and that not everyone in the world is out to hurt them. It's just so hard to convince them of that at the moment.

I'm not quite sure how to say this without sounding like a total weirdo (sorry!), but you sound like you are LIVING despite what happened to you, rather than simply existing as they are at the moment, with a normal life and a lovely DH. That's all I am dreaming of for them and the thought that it could be in their futures is amazing. Counsellors, police and social service never really focus far beyond the end of a crisis point, as a parent I want to know what happens next!

Genuinely, thank you, and I'm so sorry x[/quote]
I’m sorry they’ve gone through that.

I don’t know if I have any real answers. I had a lot of therapy. Initial stuff wasn’t much help but private therapist I found as adult helped. Checking qualifications/background/phd dissertation of his helped me realise he was right for me.

I read bucketloads. Alice Miller, Jennifer Freyd and others. Spent a lot of time reading online and using online survivor forums and rl survivor groups at one point. That isn’t without risk either through and it’s something that worked as an adult when I could evaluate what felt right to me.

I never really got saved from it all, my own reckless behaviour as a teen, after the csa stopped once I hit puberty, meant I was taken away from her. But never told anyone the truth then.

I think I realised quite young it was her that was wrong not me, but I’m not really sure how I did that.

I think often social services and so on take the approach of not demonising parents in any way. I’m inclined to think that’s not helpful, that kids need to hear this was entirely wrong and that they parents who do this have no redeeming features. It can be hard to reconcile the memories of when they seemed nice and loving and normal to what I knew was true. But it’s a lot like how men who abuse their partners will sometimes act loving-it’s all just part of their game to control the women, to gas light them, to keep them victims. But they need to hear this was always part of the abuse and control and I’m inclined to think kids need to hear the same, or for those who hold onto an idealised version of abusers they need gentle support to feel safe enough to come to that realisation themselves.

I think Jennifer Freyds betrayal trauma theory is worth reading to understand how kids have to put aside what they know to be true to maintain their bond with their primary attachment figure as survival mechanism. Because after we’re safe that survival mechanism can be the thing that gets in the way of healing. The reality of the science behind why we forgot and remember later is interesting also, although it’s never been my experience, I always remembered more than enough and what I forgot of the extremes I have never remembered. But the process of putting it aside to keep the primary attachment as a survival mechanism necessary to humans can be really helpful as that doesn’t just disappear after and that mechanism is what gets in the way of moving forward often I think. Jennifer Freyd is the woman who came up with DARVO btw.

Also, I am living. I felt like I was drowning in the ptsd for a long time afterwards. And it doesn’t always feel like I manage it well, I guess I’ve mucked up plenty from the outside, and there’s still things I don’t manage well that others take for granted. But definitely not just surviving, definitely living.

I wish you and your girls the same xxx

burnoutbabe · 30/10/2021 10:37

@onelittlefrog

Apologies, ignore above, I was wrong.

Rape has to be with a penis.

The above would be "sexual assault by penetration" which can be commited by a woman.

And the charging sentence fir that is the same as rape.

But yes women can be charged with rape if they assist a penis owner to rape someone. Under joint enterprise laws. You would still be charged with rape and suffer same sentence range as the actual rapist.

LetHimHaveIt · 30/10/2021 10:28

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2001/mar/17/sarahhall

Women can indeed be convicted of rape. I pointed this out as a simple matter of fact on another thread a few months ago, and was repeatedly shouted down by some dimwit. She's probably poised to restart her shite arguments 🙄

onelittlefrog · 30/10/2021 10:18

Apologies, ignore above, I was wrong.

Rape has to be with a penis.

The above would be "sexual assault by penetration" which can be commited by a woman.

onelittlefrog · 30/10/2021 10:14

The definition of rape in the law is that it involves penetration.

A woman can rape someone if she penetrates them - this does not have to be with a penis, it could be with an object.

So yes a woman can be charged with rape, but this does not happen very often. If a woman sexually assaults somebody it doesn't usually come under "rape".

I think they were looking at changing the definition but it's very complex for many reasons.

prh47bridge · 30/10/2021 10:09

[quote Chicchicchicchiclana]@NiceGerbil - what does CSA stand for in your last post?[/quote]
From context, CSA = Child Sex Abuse

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