BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women

Why on earth are the trans lobby so thick as to presume that all lesbians want to shag all women? Let alone trans women ?!

I mean it's just so mindblowingly stupid 🤯

As a non lesbian I’m assuming that lesbians aren’t attracted to women because they lack a penis.

Surely it’s because they have a vagina, a real one not a neo one, and surely it’s also to do with the other female features that can’t be replicated in the way breasts can- hip shape, size of hands, jaw, voice and so on.

It’s a false argument to suggest a lesbian not being attracted to tw just because some (most) still have a penis, it’s because they are male in every other respect also, and most importantly because they are not female in every way all women are.

An argument that TAs are going with at the moment is that some lesbians don't like "penis", but not all transwomen have one. So it may be acceptable for a lesbian to say that she doesn't want to have sex with a transwoman with a penis, but once that transwoman has a "vagina" rather than a penis, of course a lesbian will be happy to have sex with them. Apparently a post-operative transwoman is indisputably 100% female and acceptable to all lesbians. And it's unacceptable to say that you won't date transwomen, because you won't initially know whether they have a penis or not.

This piece of bare-faced propaganda is from NBC - the aptly named ‘Peacock Network' that has a dodgy record on the sexual harassment of women. Zero attempt at objective or balanced reporting.

No you aren't, Fin. There's not a hope in Hell of you doing that.

When a person says they will not date trans women, they are making a very wide generalization that dehumanizes individuals. It doesn't address personal preference, like "I prefer to fuck vaginas over penises." It assumes that each and every trans person is the exact same.

But everyone is (or was until now) allowed to have personal preferences when it comes to who they fancy and want to sleep with. Maybe someone can't bear beards, or doesn't fancy women who are taller than them. You can't help what you fancy, what you find offputting/unsexy. These are not generalisations about the actual people or anything else about them, its not saying they are bad people or won't make a good partner. It's just that there are things you don't fancy and for lesbians that is maleness.

It's a massive sophistry to imply that not fancying males is saying anything about TW at all, other than that they are male.

In the Catholic Church for a long time there was denial about predatory priests abusing vulnerable children & women. This was denied because it was unthinkable as priests because they were considered beyond reproach as holy men -purely because of their role & because of the damage to the church.
What was not understood is that predators seek hiding places where they can find victims & that this happens across all sectors -hence Jimmy Saville & his ilk, scout masters abusers, & also includes other religions which had the same issues
These are always a rare minority of people but caution & openness is essential to make sure that predators do not take advantage.
Denying that this is impossible & that any witnesses to the contrary are liars will lead to abuse & scandal if hidden which will ultimately do disservice to the reputation of any group or community

This is the kind of nonsense seemingly normal, kind women are posting on Twitter about this article:

Christine Cavalier (@PurpleCar) Tweeted: "Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women?"

Yes.

Let me explain why.

I just learned this myself a few months ago. I went to a trusted friend who helped me work out why this is problematic when I couldn't see it for myself.

#CisWithTheT

twitter.com/PurpleCar/status/1453342549624643586?s=20

There follows a lot of garbage about human responses to danger, then we get this:

When a person says they will not date trans women, they are making a very wide generalization that dehumanizes individuals. It doesn't address personal preference, like "I prefer to fuck vaginas over penises." It assumes that each and every trans person is the exact same.

She jumps here from the specific to the general, which is poor, but essentially the accusation is that lesbians who say no to all male members of the trans community are committing the crime of assuming they are all the same. Yes, they are because they are all male. Which is why lesbians exclusively attracted to female people will not date them.

And so on.

What is heartening is that this very long and properly daft thread is getting ratioed like crazy. People on Twitter are not having it - 1.4K comments for that first tweet, but only 65 likes.

(At one point she seems to describe the sexual orientation of lesbians as a "fear of errant penis". )

I saw this on Twitter today - Ruth Aylett is Owen Jones's mum - explains a lot!

I really cannot understand how Finn cannot see what they are doing by publicly saying lesbians should not be going public with this.

On two levels.

1. Can Finn really not see how this is wrong, and the utterly standard dynamic about how abuse gets out of hand?

2. Can Finn not see what this makes the movement look like, and how it confirms the basic premise of the article? Did Finn not understand the article?

We're not raising this to be "anti-trans", we're trying to stop this happening. The reaction of the community, and its failure to deal with this, is the point of the story, and one of the main reasons LGB Alliance was founded.

Sexual coercion by transwomen would not have become a huge BBC article if it hadn't been excused and covered up. This could have been dealt with much earlier following the GetTheLOut protests years back, and the BBC wouldn't have had to write this.

This is not going to just go away if Stonewall et al keep ignoring it.

I am actually really upset about Finn’s comments. I was sexually abused by a relative as a young teen. I was told that it was awful, they knew, but could I please don’t talk about it as it would be so awful for the abuser’s immediate family.

This is beyond chilling. Victims of abuse should never be silenced. To tell them to be silent just because it is sad if the abusers face consequences is horrific and an abuse in itself.

I really cannot understand how Finn cannot see what they are doing by publicly saying lesbians should not be going public with this.

It is incredibly disappointing from someone who is supposed to stand up for women.

“Oh… yes, you can talk about it, but only to the people the community agrees you to talk to about it and when we feel it is convenient.” That is what they are doing.

Oh the BBC's response is brilliant. Good on them for not backing down.

That letter is really quite something isn't it. They don't realise what an own goal it is introducing people to the idea of a lesbian with a beard and a female penis.

Exactly. If a man is 'presenting as the opposite sex', they are inhabiting the stereotypes which are detrimental to women. If a man is presenting as a man and wearing a frock, he isn't.

Yes!

Women's sexual proclivities are not subject to discriminatory judgement. We're not an exercise in equality.

They don't have to future proof their decisions against some hypothetical situation which might constitute a what if.

This.

There's a huge difference between someone who dresses like Napoleon and someone who claims to be Napoleon.

The former is going to be far more attractive to most people.

I can well imagine women for whom "short man in French military uniform" is their type, but would then totally lose that at a certain point of over-commitment.

(Although conversely, I can imagine in certain circles you might have individuals who all want to inhabit a mutual role play universe, in which case commitment to the role might be a benefit?)

I cannot imagine being attracted to a man who presents in a feminine way

That depends what we mean by "feminine way". It's not my usual type, but I have been attracted before to men who people might consider present in a more androgynous way and play with fashion etc. And had a serious relationship with one for several years in my 20s. So no. In this context I am only ruling out MTF trans people themselves, males who claim they are actually women or not quite men rather than men who like flouncy clothes. And I don't think there are many "GC" MTF trans people, tbh.

I am pleased the BBC have held their nerve though. Maybe we finally have some grown ups in the room?

He's a gay man though - surely the concept of same sex attraction is easy for him to understand?!

Nice.

It is better not to talk about it according to Dr Finn Mackay….

The only MPs I’ve seen supporting the right of the BBC to report on this and to openly support Dr Stock have been Tories.

Not remotely surprised by Ben Bradshaw tbh - a gay man in a long term civil partnership with no skin at all in the game whose constituency includes the university of exeter which is a Sussex type uni. He’s never going to prioritise women

jb7445 your poor neighbours

I've worked with lesbians who have reported this to me. In my case there was no report of actual assault but of the fear of the pressure. The pressure they're under to not admit that lesbian means same sex attracted. They don't feel able to restate that for fear of being ostracised. They cannot date, socialise etc without that sense of pressure to avoid confrontation re their sexuality and its boundaries.

Lesbian women living in fear and constantly feeling under threat of abuse and ostracisation if they talk honestly about their sexuality. Who supports that?

Ben Bradshaw MP :(

@MrsMadderRose

I saw a comment on Twitter from a genderwoo person who I know and who is female, saying that what’s going on is probably just that the lesbians find the transwomen attractive and don’t feel comfortable about it, so they hurl accusations.

“You love it really” made woke :(

Do these people even hear themselves? They would prefer to twist themselves in knots to keep pretending these men are all Hayley Croppers rather than listen to women and face up to the truth.