DD and non binary friends and pronouns

This is what adults have done to children's minds mobile.twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1453036175174873090

I know you say she can’t get new friends, but I would be doing everything in my power to change her friends. They are trouble with a capital T.

I’ve known a few friends now whose daughters got involved in fervent trans groups and none of them ended well. There was always one or two kids who were extremely troubled and I think because of the whole dancing around this issue, instead of being given compassionate but steady security, were left to go down rabbit holes and dragged my friends kids with them.

Alternatively if this is an absolute no, I would still be advising your child about core values. Don’t get into the rabbit hole. Things like trust, respect, friendships based on accepting a person especially if they don’t feel ready to talk or identify in the way others want them to. And I’d get to know her friends, keep them close and keep a really beady eye on them!

More realistically the cafe guy would have thought: eggshells alert! if I make one false step here a social media campaign targeted at the cafe will end up getting me the sack.

One unfortunate guy happened to say very nicely ‘what can I get you ladies’ at the cafe - she launched into a tirade about how she wasn’t female.
"Well I wasn't talking to you then. I'll take your order last, ladies first, you know"
('ladies first' is a bit archaic but needs must when dealing with someone so obnoxious)

That 25 mins in the disabled toilet has really pee'd me off, I'm glad your DD realised how ridiculous and selfish it was. Young people love a crusade - this is the current one. There are some transboys at my school, not sure which toilets and changing rooms they use though.

OP. I think the situation handled itself. Your DD (rightly) told off her friend for her egregious behavior hogging a disabled toilet. You, the adult, showed your frustration and put up boundaries. While DD may think she can't find another friend, I sure that isn't the case. Sadly, the obnoxious young girl is the one who will lose friends.

Personally I'd be asking how the hell you can be a NB Lesbian.

It defies logic.

You can't be same sex attracted when you've rejected the reality of sex in preference to the concept of being non-gendered.

The thing is the more kids who id as NB fundamentally the less cool/edgy/special etc it becomes as a concept and thus a far less desirable/exclusive "tribe" to join.

As for this particular child I think I'd absolutely separating rude/thoughtless behaviour from being veggie/vegan/NB/next thing whatever it is (eg the food/wandering off).

Using the disabled toilets in circumstances you describe isn't standing up for your rights, it's stamping on the rights of others and I've have challenged it there and then.

My oldest identifies as NB as do a few friends - TBH while I believe a tiny minority people are NB, most kids now are adopting it bc they don't like the gender binary rather than bc they have a profound sense of being neither sex, and have expressed this to DC. We are 'indulging' it because of, as DH puts it, 'not being a dick' - if we say 'Nooo, you can't be NB', it just becomes a wedge between us and something between them and their friends. I think it's a bit of trend, but maybe I'm just old and their on to something but my hope is it will ultimately lead to a valuable rethink about gender stereotypes. I have told them that I think if one doesn't like stereotypes, better to own ones birth sex and declare you can still express yourself however you like. And also that theirs is the first generation to experience adolescence so much through this lens of gender and some of the 'discomfort' they feel in gender identity is normal adolescent stuff.

Came to a bit of a head with DH recently, accepting as he wishes to be, when DC said friend, J, wanted to use neopronouns whereby people referred to them by their own pronouns (ie, I would use 'she' and DH 'he') and this just pissed DH off and I kind of understand it, but the language he used was perhaps a bit un helpful. It doesn't feel too big a deal to me personally as I can't see a scenario where I'd refer to J in the third person in front of her anyway, but hey ho.

One thing I am wondering about lately, is, for all those trans boys in schools - how many of them are using male toilets? Do they feel safe to do that? And if they don't, what does that say about where the problem is.... (as in, is it cis women/girls not being 'nice' or is it male violence)?

My DS who is 14 is right in the middle of this. Of his friendship group all of the girls have changed their names, orientations, etc. etc. He and his other friends (who are boys) are utterly bemused by it all. The girls have come up with a helpful system of coloured wristbands which indicate their sexuality and badges to indicate their pronouns. We’ve discussed it a few times, and he is clear on his understanding of sex vs gender. I’ve told him that I would nod and smile and say
‘As long as you’re happy’ or some such when they are waxing lyrical about their new identities.
He does get a bit upset when they shout at him for getting their names or pronouns wrong, but when they’re changing them on a weekly basis it’s hard to keep up!

God, the friend sounds unbearable, nothing to do with being nonbinary. She needs to come to terms with the basic idea that other people also have rights (and feelings), not just her, but you can't really teach that to someone else's child.

It's not specifically written for teens but your daughter might like the article Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls” by MK Fain. A feminist perspective, based on the author's experience of several woman friends (age 19-23) deciding they were non-binary, and her attempts to understand their different reasons and experiences. She comes out about where your daughter already is, with the idea that you can't opt out and trying to reinforces the stereotypes for everyone: 4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

This one is more recent, by the same author, focusing on celebrities going nonbinary, mainly Demi Lovato: quillette.com/2021/05/31/sorry-demi-lovato-you-cant-fight-sexism-by-opting-out-of-womanhood/

This one - from Australian blogger Tony, aka @svyazhsk - is a bit more theoretical (nothing too advanced) and debunks some common talking points from a socialist perspective: freerlives.wordpress.com/2020/02/02/the-fake-radicalism-of-nonbinary/ Lots of good stuff on sex role stereotyping on his blog, too.

Then there's this from Fair Play for Women with talks about how demands for nonbinary recognition in the UK runs the risk of undermining women's rights and opportunities: fairplayforwomen.com/stonewalls-non-binary-demands-undermine-womens-protections/

Could your DD assign a nickname to the indecisive friend and just use that every time.

Personally, I wouldn't entertain any of it and I'd buy your daughter a copy of Helen Joyce's Trans book.

Can't help feeling she feels rejected and this is almost a cry for help.
There may well be grounds for feeling sorry for her, but her problems are not your daughter's responsibility to fix. With the various attention-seeking behaviours you've described, I wouldn't be inviting her again, and would be telling her parents that it is down to her rudeness. However, I would consult with your daughter before deciding on that course of action, in case she is worried that she may become a target for bullying.

I hope I've done the pronouns right. I don't actually know what a pronoun is but I know mumsnet are very keen on them so I've tried my best

I don't think it's healthy for the 'non-binary' to be indulged in this behaviour either. No one is doing they any favours allowing they to get away with this appalling behaviour. Then will end up with no friends or toxic friendships. Firm boundaries need to be put in place. We all remember the spoilt children with difficult home life's from school. And we all remember that they were a nightmare. The trans thing is a distraction as a PP said.

I just can't believe that she spent 25 minutes in the toilets. Only person I ever knew who'd spend that long in there took a newspaper so that he could skive from work.

It will have been 25 minutes on the Internet declaring to the other special identities out there how they were striking a blow for the safety of transpeople in an uncaring world.

Honestly I'd take the pronouns/trans stuff out of it.

Anything else and you'd not he wanting to find literature ir a you tube video to explain why narcissistic, self absorbed, and overly needy, demanding selfish ( for using the disabled toilet) and dramatic friends are a bad idea.

This is our opinion. In face better to call yourself a girl and smash the stereotypes -says DD.

Your DD is great

Similar for my year 7 DD. Many of her friends the same age (different schools though) have declared themselves as something other than straight.
I said to her that I don't doubt some people know at this age that they are gay (for example), but as for anything else I dont think they necessarily have the life experience to 'classify' themselves yet, eg bi or pansexual.

DD doesn't feel like she's anything at all yet and I told her that was fine and probably most of her friends actually feel like she does but maybe feel pressured to answer a certain way. She thought maybe that is true.

It just seems that they are desperate to be special and unique and this gives them an outlet for this. Maybe I'm just cynical.

No advice but did happen to watch this last night, it's YouTuber Exulansic taking down a cringeworthy BBC Three bit on young NB people telling us why they're so special.

The original source is nigh-on unbearable so it's good to hear someone talk sense and pick it apart. Exulansic seems to have returned to the topic a few times this week too.

...and conversations over would she, as a lesbian, have sex with a trans woman who has just self Id as a women. Dd doesn’t want to be accused as a trans person phobe - where can she go for unbiased discussion

Definitely, definitely do not suggest this conversation absolutely don't.

Her non binary friend will definitely be the sort to consider TW in the definition of "lesbian" and looks riled up to jump on anyone who isn't completely TWAW.
I feel so sorry for that waiter

This will be a young woman with virtually no life experience especially of a sexual nature, she thinks she need a hundred labels to identify with in order to navigate her path through life and all of the labels are virtually meaningless when used in gender ideology. The fact that "lesbian" has a specific meaning that excludes penises will be "bigoted and phobic" in her pov.

I would have a quiet convo with your daughter along the lines that at the end of the day you're either a female NB person or a male NB person, (if the predictable "intersex" is raised, again DSDs affect male and female people very differently, you're still either male with a DSD or female with a DSD, the disorders are not proof that sex is a "spectrum").

Her friend will always be perceived to be a female, will be treated as female, people will identify them as female, she needs female only spaces, needs female centred legal protections, as much as any other female, so the NB label is utterly pointless apart from in attempt to be super cool and trendy.

However, if your DD really wants to stay friends with this young person she'd better keep her mouth shut , because her friend has been completely taken in by gender ideology, probably from spending too much time on the internet, and will react extremely aggressively to anyone not 100% in line with it all. Sad but true.