Do Women Need Male "Allies"?

Just remembered.

The best panel we had was one with women from across the org who were not super high up. Talking about their experiences in male dominated industry, how they came to it, really moving stories about women in family etc who inspired them. Some women from elsewhere in world growing up different challenges. Really interesting and inspiring.

We need to hear from women. Full stop.

And we need men to GAF because they hold the power etc.

You need to be really careful full stop.

I've seen so much of this. And been on a committee at a small company etc.

Thing is when it comes to women's stuff people feel much happier to share their random views/ issues with it etc etc.

You don't tend to get this at work groups around LGBT+ or ethnic minorities etc. People outside thinking yeah I'll just say what my problems are with all this with an audience etc.

Anyway. Yes need to be very careful. In my career I've come across a fair few women who were very firm that feminism was rubbish and women need to stfu and get on with it. And if it's sexist etc just hide of rhino and push through etc.

We had a high profile woman on gender equality (sigh) panel and she spent 10 mins going on about how it's all bollocks and women these days are weak...

Another vv high up gave a good long natter about how 2 weeks mat leave was a great choice (worked for her but .. only female on board saying it not a great message!).

Surely the panel should be 3:1 female to male as the man can listen to the shared experiences and then take to other men to help them understand?

Put 3 men together and they'll talk about how they perceive the 1 woman (reflecting yet again the major mansplaining issues in large organisations).

My previous employer set up a group supposedly aimed at looking at barriers to women in the industry and particularly helping retain female employees after they had children. This could have been really useful. But unfortunately a man who was rather senior in the company (and aiming to be more so) decided to head it up- on the basis that it showed that women were being taken seriously. He dominated the first meeting by mansplaining how he coped as a lone parent (whilst actually his ex did most of the child care and he just looked after her every other weekend) then concluded that basically everything was fine, just some women lose their ambition when they have DC.

The thing is the actual men who've actually done something actual for women don't describe themselves this way.

I still know a bloke who was a stranger in a pub when I met him; helped me out with a wanker handsy gobshite. He would look at me like I had two heads if I called him a feminist ally. But he was one of about three men in my entire life that's helped when I was sexually harassed in public.

The 'feminist allies' I've met have been self-aggrandizing at best, abusers at worst. In it for the applause or to shag naïve lib fems.

Sorry haven't rtft but isn't this an opportunity for education? To try to get males to understand just how prominent male privilege is, and what they can do to challenge it.

My ever-so-progressive BIL was always very uncomfortable when DSis and I vented our spleen about TRAs and the transgender movement. He was coming at the argument from a male (privileged) background. When DSis talked to him rationally about how and why this threatens women's rights he began to understand why we were so critical.

I'm sorry if that's simplistic; I lurk on the feminism boards purely to educate myself usually.

*allies

I'd prefer non-biased pro-science colleagues rather than 'allys'.

I was originally an LGBT ally, until I heard what that implied for women and same-sex attracted people. I have some rainbow things to burn at some point.

Definitely women need male allies. They hire me, promote me, listen when I say that webinar content was great but what a manel- 8 people across the sessions and every single one a white male.

In non work life we need it too. It’s the blokes who tell someone at the pub to piss off. It’s my husband Shari the parenting role with me as a role model to our boys. Etc etc.

After plenty of years working, in my industry at least, I'm fairly sure I have a pretty good handle on how most men see this, and d&I stuff in general..!

The word "ally" would put me off no matter who was on the panel. But it would be difficult to make a change in most companies without including men. It can also be very useful to understand how others see the same situation.

I don't know if women as a whole 'need' male allies, but if you are working in a company with a big gender pay gap then you are probably going to need senior men on board, because they are the ones who have set up and perpetuated this gap.

So if they are promoting men over women, penalising women for parenting, recruiting in their own image or any of the BS that happens in companies, and currently hold the power, then women can't change that by themselves.

Of course, the next question is 'what is allyship?'

If it's sitting around chatting about what male characteristics women need to adopt to get promoted, for example, then it's not worth 5 minutes of your time. If it's active listening and 'how can we amplify the voices of women and bring about change' then it might be OK.

Please do report back!

Would I have sat on a panel?

Hell no! Best is for those in the group to say what they think helps and many anecdotes etc.

Who has deemed these 3 men to be you know. Inspirational allies. I wonder.

I would put money on those who said they'd do panel being a mix of

Good for career/ profile etc
Types who know everything about everything and are always right
Little insight into women's concerns etc at all
Have one or two trivial anecdotes

Having said that I was an LGBTQetc ally at an old work. Mates with bloke who ran it. Had trouble getting bums on seats etc. I helped with stuff and went along with him to industry LGBT stuff.

I've always felt that adopting the identity 'feminist ' or 'ally' for oneself is uncomfortable, even inappropriate. I can't imagine feeling right about joining a panel with that name. So often men have co-opted those self-descriptors as if drawing on a Cloak of Invisibility. They wear it, pontificate and feel that the critique of Feminism no longer applies to them or their behaviours. And lots turn out to be shits.

I always felt that Feminism was a convincing analysis, but that the consequence of being convinced was the challenge it posed for me to think about, and try to change, my socialisation and behaviour. So I'd wonder which blokes were putting themselves forward for the Allyship Panel. Maybe this is cynical or an eccentric view, I dunno.

Also note IME the men who do get it. Are not the look at me ones.

If it's how to be a male ally then really women should be saying their views. Otherwise you end up with the blokes saying hopeless rubbish and congratulating each other.

Yes as over the world and forever men still control the govts, business etc etc and without those with financial clout, political clout etc onboard then things change incredibly slowly or not at all (and can go backwards incredibly fast).

Getting stuff done when the vast majority of men don't like it or don't care is incredibly hard.

What we DON'T need is the way this is being applied in apparently a host of areas esp work!

Signs it's going to go wonky include

Women's network or similar being called all gender network

Events etc for male allies to be lauded usually instead of women

Things being shifted subtly to moving focus off women and onto. Men have issues to, and also branching out into other topics in general. Important ones, but with the effect of again not focusing on women

Men dominating any conversation. Saying things like I realised when I had daughters etc to massive applause

Etc etc.

It's 3 men and 1 woman which I think is fair as they are specifically discussing how to be a male ally

Alternatively it's 3 men whose voices are not only louder than the one woman's, but who are also able to outvote her on a subject they have no intimate knowledge of.

Maybe the best thing a male 'ally' could do would be to ensure other men shut up so that women's voices can be heard. And also to ensure men keep their hands to themselves so that women can move about in safety.

What we don't want is mean speaking for us. We have voices. They're just not as loud as men's voices.

‘Allyship’ is on my cringe list of phoney words. Sadly ‘inclusion’ now tends to mean ‘exclusion’. ‘Siblings’ is now used in a babyish sugar-coated way in order to avoid using the horrifically sexed ‘brothers and sisters’

We do need male allies as if men don't give a shit about women's rights we will never achieve women's rights. I also think we need men who are vocal about campaigning and advocating for women's rights. I don't think men should just shut up and listen. I think they need to speak, especially to other men and especially, especially calling out other men.

The wording is provoking me to send a response along the lines of "men should sit down and shut up for 5 fucking minutes" but I sense that may be provocative.

I completely agree. (With both parts of your sentence! )

I wonder if suggesting some form of 'active listening' for males might be useful?

The dynamics of how males tend to dominate conversations etc need to be put front and centre of any arrangement that includes male allies. They need to be acknowledged. Not taken personally, but there are plenty of stats to show the 'credibility gap' and the different responses and reactions to people dependant on people's sex.

So, yes, male allies are a good thing to have, but that has to be part of a wider structured arrangement that considers how to ensure that women's voices aren't, as they so often are, subsumed by mens'.

I love it when men actually show and interest and stand up for us, but the best thing that 'allies' can do is listen, this isn't men's 'fight' as such, but of course change can't happen if men don't engage. Slightly different topic but I was recently discussing with a group of friends (all white except for 1 black man) the use of the 'n' word within the black community, the white people were all saying it's their word to take back and reframe the meaning etc etc which I do agree with but equally the only black person in the group was saying he didn't agree with anyone using the word, none of the white people listened and just talked over him with their opinions, this isn't the kind of allieship anyone needs. Listening to people who are directly affected is the number one thing that allies should do.

What's the balance of men and women on the panel?

If it's a mixture, arementalkingtoomuch.com/