Changing sex is impossible

The Judith Butler in the Guardian this weekend was also very informative. The long and short of it being, you can only understand these matters if you have a PhD in gender studies...... so just accept that we're right. Now call me cynical, but to me that screams bullshit.

I don't think people really believe it. But saying you do is the inevitable end consequence if the ideology.

Its starts off small, pronouns, and other seemingly harmless adaptations and before you know it you have been tricked into saying people can change sex and saying rapists should chose their prisons.

Once in its hard to get out and some.people would rather see it through to the end than admit they were fooled.

Of course the ability to shit on women and threaten wonen with violence and be able to say lesbianism should include males and still be seen as the "good guy" is also very appealing.

Totally agree. People who think this, or say they do, should have gone to that biology class instead of bunking off to smoke behind the bike sheds, or whatever it was that they were doing instead of learning about how their bodies work.

There's a direct correlation between lack of Biology GCSE and the TRA nonsense.

Impossible to change sex, as Lord Winston said and as everyone knows really. Even trans men and women, gone through all the procedures with hormones and surgery, they know they have not changed sex. For some, like Buck Angel, it's enough, and he is comfortable with the fact he will always be biologically female. I spoke with a trans woman recently who said she's not male, but not female either, she feels like there should be a 'third state'.

But there are other trans individuals for whom this is not enough and so they have pushed and pushed for the language and the very way we process actual reality to be changed. Under these new definitions, they are women. In fact, better than women, the default woman - and yes, a trans woman I was speaking to on twitter did take offence at being described as a trans woman by me, and suggested instead 'woman' and 'non trans woman'. I think she was being sarcastic, but when I pointed out The Green Party had done just that, she blocked me!

So, with the language twisted and rearranged, you then hear the stories of Keira Bell and Sinaed Watson, who were tricked into thinking they really would be changing sex by the whole damn community when they took hormones and cut off their breasts, only to realise when it was too late that it was a fiction!!

I have young girls telling me the trans women they know are just like them and they are happy undressing with them, sharing rooms with them, playing sports with them.... and either not wanting to look uncool or row with their kids their mothers agree, when they should be warning them....yes, maybe the pal you grew up and you trust and you have known for years who is now a trans woman is fine. But what about the 40 year old in a wig, the man who says he is gender fluid and wants to wear a dress whenever he feels like it and use your changing rooms?

What about Loudon School?

Not, I hasten to add, that trans women are predatory men, but we ALL KNOW young girls - and boys - should have boundaries in place. This is breaking down those boundaries we have been safely building for decades.

And then we also change the meaning of words like bigot, fascist, transphobe. We change the meaning of words like hate and hate crimes, violence, harm, unsafe. We make people scared of not using the new language.

With language, with compliance, and enabling we have changed language, and reality.

As far as I can gather, cobbled together from the snippets of information they let out. It's something like your hormones, organs and external genitals can change over your life which means there's a whole variety of sexes not just two. I haven't been able to find out what they believe this means in reality. Like actual examples. For me, it begs the question, my mum has had a hysterectomy and been through the menopause. Does that mean she isn't fully a woman anymore? They are keeping the details to themselves, presumably as it's bat shit crazy. Drives me insane having to hunt down tit bits of information.

Robert Lifton has 8 criteria for Thought Reform based on his research into brainwashing and prisoners of war.

I've listed them here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?msgid=111900052

3 of the interesting ones for this discussion are:

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious, and must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.

The language is being changed around us and it's making it fraught to have conversations in some contexts or to scrutinise policies and legislation. Look at the government's recent refusal to record biological sex because 'nobody knows how to assess sex and biological sex doesn't exist'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382975-Trans-Criminals-are-not-Women-says-Priti-Patel?msgid=111908344

How often are we told that belief in the immutability of sex is evidence of bigotry and younger people don't have our restricted thinking and this will all become clearer as those of us with these arcane wrongthink patterns die out?

Of course you can't change sex.

You can try and change your appearance because you want people relying on a few visual cues to assume you are the opposite sex, but you remain the sex you were born.

Interestingly whenever you try and have a conversation with a trans rights activist on here about sex, they usually change the term to "gender identity assigned at birth" and refuse to talk about sex
(Example: "are you trans if the word used to describe your gender identity is different from the word used to describe your biological sex?" "Yes, you are trans if your gender identity assigned at birth is different from your current gender identity").

This is an odd linguistic sleight of hand and suggests that sex and gender should be used interchangeably, except that means then that they can't differ if you can't differentiate them, so it's all quite confusing!

Because they think “male” and “female” are social concepts, not biological terms. It’s about how you feel inside and how you identify. Therefore according to this principle genitals don’t matter, so men can menstruate and women can have penises because those things are not how we define men and women. Hence the descriptions of us as cervix-havers, pregnant people etc.

I'm also going to chip in and say that I was very pleased to see so many scientists chip in when Margaret Atwood tweeted the Sciam article that uses DSD/VSD to argue that sex is a spectrum. (It was wretched for all of the organisations and advocates who had to remind Atwood, yet again, not to misunderstand them, yet again, and to stop using them as a cover for wrong science.)

Speaking…..😡

I was soeaking to someone yesterday who obviously knows people can’t change sex but thinks there is a sweet spot where the person concerned has had all the surgery and is on hormones etc

It was quite a good discussion even though we obviously disagreed on some things….what was ‘fair’ in women’s sports for example

They don't believe it
They have just decided that it doesn't matter and that biological sex is not relevant in determining what your biological sex is.

That and thinking gender is anything other than stereotypical bullshit.

There's a lot of misinformation in schools and some families get a surprising amount of their 'up-to-date' knowledge from children.

And I agree with PPs that some of this confusion and denial and counter-denial creates so much noise that people think it's impossible to look into and that creates uncertainty where none should exist.

So why do so many people believe that you can change sex?

Because they are enjoying the power it gives them knowing if they denounce someone in authority for ‘wrongthink’ that person will lose their job.
They enjoy adding to the witch-hunt of successful woman such as JK Rowling and making her life a misery and presumably that of her children.
They would’ve made good Stasi officers.

But there is a large group also denying that others ARE saying they can change sex. Which is gaslighting.

Indeed. And this is the group doing one of: denying that sex is important/arguing that the basis of discrimination/violence against women is gender not sex; arguing that sex is a spectrum/there are many sexes; arguing that sex is irrelevant if someone passes as the opposite sex; arguing that sex is immaterial when considered against their declared gender identity; or arguing that sex is just too complicated and it is impossible to know anyone's sex.

Because so many people in public positions are keen to suggest you can. Keir Starmer, Nicola Sturgeon, Ed Davey etc - muppets!

Boris Johnson and the Tories may be so so awful in lots of ways but at least they don’t parrot TWAW etc.

It is because sex is a spectrum, innit.

We have had quite a few posters that have tried to convince us that they have not changed sex because they were always ‘that’ sex they just modified their bodies to match.

Or that they have adjusted their hormonal ‘sex’, the appearance of their secondary sex characteristics etc so therefore they have changed more that half of the sex markers of the body so that counts as being able to call themselves the opposite sex.

But there is a large group also denying that others ARE saying they can change sex. Which is gaslighting.

Some of this is down to the influence of postmodernismwhere language no longer refers to an object but to whatever a person decides it means. The world is as I want it to be and if you challenge that then you are denying me. Thus pushback. www.britannica.com/topic/postmodernism-philosophy

MsTSwift, the analogy with God is not a good one, as millions of Christians have had direct experience of the presence of God, Jesus was a real person, and there are eye witness accounts of His resurrection, recorded by, amongst others, St Paul.
Perhaps flat Earthers are a better comparison, where the belief is demonstrably false. You cannot disprove the existence of God.

For me there’s an innate knowledge and I just can’t override it. I know god doesn’t exist and that you can’t actually change sex. That may upset others but for me it’s not a “belief” I just deep down know those things are reality. I would love to believe in god but just can’t. Same with gender ideology. It just isn’t true.

For me the most coherent explanation for this belief stems from the idea that rather than being a reproductive class, sex is just a collection of attibributes (for women: vagina, breasts etc), which sometimes (but not always) includes aspects of brain/mind/personality etc. The idea is that because you can change some of these attributes, then once you have acquired enough it would be absurd to suggest that you are not woman. For many the important attribute is the inner feeling, so if you have that you are (all/most?) of the way there, but even for those who do not believe in gender identity, it is felt that the more womanly attributes you collected it is possible to “become” a woman.

This approach ignores/doesn’t accept the fact that the essence of sex is the reproductive class, which is why our genitalia - because of their intended function - are our primary sexual characteristics. Secondary characteristics (including any debunked ideas of brain sex) are just that, secondary.

It is about how babies are made.

So why do so many people believe that you can change sex?

Partly because you can't.

If we could do this, you would see an actual conflict between the men who had changed sex and those who hadn't. It would be like the "tru trans" thing but worse.

And you would have sensible objective rules about how to handle sex changes. It's because we can't do it that we don't know how to handle claims of having done it. We try to pretend that there never was a sex change and that "they were always that sex". Which is where the whole thing disintegrates.

If we could change sex, then we'd try to slot in the trans with the actual sex-changers, subject to their rules. Any claims to somehow get more rights than sex-changers - a pretence of no sex change - would be self-evidently ridiculous.

Obviously a man who had sex-changed wouldn't compete in natal women's sports, for example, so why would a trans male think they should? It wouldn't get anywhere.

They like to talk about clownfish - imagine the fun with trans clownfish versus those who had changed sex. You'd be having endless arguments about what it meant to "change sex" and why the trans clownfish were no different from the sex-changed clownfish.

But because no-one has done it, there's no real pushback to the claim. (Apart from women, obviously, but who cares about them).