Changing sex is impossible

In fact, its really damn simple to take a DNA sample, so all this 'you cant know your chromosomes' bullshit is smoke and mirrors. If you have ever been to hospital and had a blood sample - hell even from the heel prick test you have as a baby - they can identify your sex if they really wanted to.

Whoa.

If ever anyone ever says that to me they had better hope I am not on my period!!

I started menstruating when I was 9. I am currently peri menopausal. I haven't had kids, but really try telling any woman with stretch marks, tears, stitches, post natal depression, sore nipples from breastfeeding, compromised careers from taking maternity leave, try telling any of us that some estrogen cream makes you more of a woman than any of us....

I think it's the first one - in fact I think all of it is. Shoring up decisions made when under mental distress/trauma that has led to a position where they can't backtrack so just have to keep going with more and more ridiculous assertions (unless they're brave enough to detransition which I wish my friend was)

my guess is 1 and 3 @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus. I'm not a psychologist so I'd love to hear from experts. maybe it's an affirmation purity test --- keep saying anti-science things until you disagree

They also claim to be more of a woman than me because they take lots of estrogen and so must have much more of it than me

This was on another thread about diversity training in the workplace. The TW trainer said the same thing "I'm more woman because estrogen' ...

That's a good point. Do those ancestry DNA type kits also report on sex chromosomes?

Don't get me started on those and all the long lost brothers an sisters based on these tests which are completely non-conclusive ...

they claim that that's highly unusual and most people could never know.

tbh, I'm baffled by the number of people who take DNA tests and buy them for others and upload them in the hope of uncovering family members or secrets . So, the number of people with DNA results might surprise your friend.

Sonexit's like Who ya gonna believeme or your lyin' eyes?

I think there are a range of different views about this, as other posters have explained, from those who don't believe this, to those who believe they have always been female/male, to those who think sex is a state of mind, to those who think once there's been "enough" surgery/hormones etc sex is changed.

But at the root of all of that is, I think, an inherent misogyny that men are human and women are defective. Women are "missing" body parts, so a man can (must?) be a woman if he has his penis removed, or his testosterone suppressed, or if he doesn't conform to masculine norms.

I know TRAs will also say TMAM, but as has been noted on this forum over the years, this is often an afterthought. The "male as default human" is also illustrated by female non-binary people removing their breasts and even their wombs (Christie Elan Cane for example), as though the "neutral" state must be without breasts.

I know a transwoman who is convinced she must not, and in fact, does not have XY chromosomes in every cell. They are convinced that that is why they grew up to become trans (they identified as gay in their teen years but that has now been rebranded as a transitional step). They are convinced by the whole 'nobody knows their own chromosomes' argument and firmly believes that all/most transpeople 'must' have non standard chromosome arrangements which explain why they were born in the wrong body etc (notice how that one has died out?). These are ethereal and, in fact, unknowable in some sense.

When I point out that I in fact do know that I have XX chromosomes (did a degree in Genetics at uni and we tested ourselves) and that my children will also know that they (of course) have entirely standard XX or XY chromosomes that correspond with their biological sex (had genetic testing when pregnant and it's on the reports, which I have), they claim that that's highly unusual and most people could never know. I went to school with this person and while I was in Biology class they, well let's just say they weren't there for the vast majority of classes and showed no interest in the subject.

They also claim to be more of a woman than me because they take lots of estrogen and so must have much more of it than me, demonstrating a similarly flawed understanding of endocrinology to that of genetics, for very much the same non-class attendance reasons. I have asked whether I will be able to achieve this state of advanced womanhood when I start taking HRT but apparently not as I didn't start in my twenties like she did.

When I ask her why she doesn't get tested to see what chromosomes she has if she's convinced that explains why she is trans, she gets very upset and 'triggered' about me questioning her clearly female identify and calls me a mean TERF.

This person is actually a friend, as I say, we've known each other a long time. I respect her choices and she sort of understands my position. I can see that most of hers is backed up by incomplete or just not present understanding of science and poor education though. I wonder how things would be if she wasnt just assuming that the science backed her up.

By "trans-specific" do they mean giving them fake results? Bonkers. I wonder if you don't like your eye colour you can ask for that to be "adjusted" too. 🤣

Genuine lack of ability to deal with reality. And people suggest affirming it! Madness

Flaming autocorrect. "educate" not "education".

Midwife - 3 years training
Neonatal Nurse - 3 years training
Sonographer - 3 years training
Obstetrician - 7 years training
Paediatrician - 8 years training

Biology Denier - saw a TikTok video

That's why we saw the spectacle of a drama student trying to education Professor Lord Winston, one of the world's foremost experts in medicine and science, in biology.

The words have got all muddled up.
We started off with "transsexuals" and "sex change surgery" - if doctors call something sex change surgery it's no wonder Joe and Jill public will think what it does is change your sex. The arrogance of the medical profession, really.

Then more recently people started to recognise that really if you've had surgery, and what surgery, is down to lots of factors not least money and waiting lists, and there's nothing really more female about someone who has had cosmetic surgery. So they started avoiding mention of sex altogether and positing this concept of "gender identity" which was purely in your head and was to supplant sex.

Which obviously makes no sense at all. Even if gender identity could be shown to exist as more than a social construct, with its 100+ categories, what relevance would it be to public life? You can't provide separate facilities to each gender identity, and why would you want to? It makes about as much sense as splitting facilities by which football team people identify with.

*EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

EVERYONE knows what sex has the wombs

There's enough misinformation in mainstream media that there is uncertainty and there are the additional claims about womb implants.*

..... and yet, everyone knows who they need when they want a baby.

But the huge sacrifices and personal cost to womankind of birthing every single human being who has ever lived is just not very important.....

I don't like the change in language, as if we are not pc to question it. It's as though you now can't say what Lord Winston has said, for fear of being sacked.

@Soubriquet

Some do believe it. I read about someone who did one of those dna ancestors tests and was gutted to see their dna as XY and wanted to know if anyone did a trans specific one

By "trans-specific" do they mean giving them fake results? Bonkers. I wonder if you don't like your eye colour you can ask for that to be "adjusted" too. 🤣

EVERYONE knows what sex has the wombs

There's enough misinformation in mainstream media that there is uncertainty and there are the additional claims about womb implants.

@IvyTwines2 I’d report your post if you want an answer. They won’t see your message otherwise

MNHQ why was my message deleted?

*RoyalCorgi

If you read the stuff the TRAs write, they seem to believe a variety of different things:

1. Nobody knows their own chromosomes so nobody know what sex they are really!*

..... until it comes to babies. Then everyone knows what sex they are. And if you want a baby you need a womb. If you haven't got one yourself you need to get one and EVERYONE knows what sex has the wombs, sheesh....

In deed.

Trans people don't actually require everyone else to bend their reality and see them as their preferred sex; 'talk to actual trans people' I am told, by TRAs on line and actually I have - I have a trans woman relative and have worked with several, they say the same thing - they know what they are, they are content with being themselves, they self exclude from female spaces and are respectful of female bodies, they don't insist on smear tests or being included in breast feeding groups, I know trans women who are still 'dad' or 'uncle', even one trans woman who didn't change her name (she was called after her grandad, its an important part of her identity).

So who is making these demands and for what reason. Well, I can think of about two hundred billion reasons, I think money is the motivatior here but with the added bonus that it helps break down established and strong boundaries and enables people to be vile and vicious and violent to women with impunity.

If you read the stuff the TRAs write, they seem to believe a variety of different things:

1. Clownfish can change sex, so humans can change sex too.
2. Sex is not binary. It exists on a spectrum, and this is proven by the existence of intersex people.
3. It is possible to have a female brain in a male body, and vice versa.
4. Nobody knows their own chromosomes so nobody know what sex they are really!
5. Biological sex is very complicated, so while one marker of sex (eg genitalia) might suggest you're one sex, your chromosomes (or other markers of sex) might suggest another.
6. Biological sex is socially constructed, while gender identity is real.

There are probably others, but those are the main ones I've noted.