For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

So a TRA takeaway-

The word "woman" is just a word, if you choose to use it as your identity then you are one, it's not based on biology or stereotypes, or anything at all in fact. But the word means SO MUCH to some, they'll commit suicide en mass if they can't use it and will harass and intimidate women over the use of the word, despite not having a definition for it.

GC women arguing for third spaces for mixed sex, eg an open sports category (recently talked about at length by a very well known GC feminist Dr Williams) while also keeping same sex spaces for those who want/need them, are transphobic bigots. TRA believe ALL spaces should be mixed sex, but those that are designated male/female should be done so on the basis of chosen identity, so they're both still mixed sex, but you use either one based on what you believe about your gender identity.

Repeated comparisons of homophobic rhetoric with what GC arguments, whilst being in complete denial as to how deeply and utterly homophobic (and misogynistic) the gender ideology movement is.

Repeated use of insults in place of actual arguments. Repeated use of twisting the words that other people have said in place of actual arguments.
Bullying, check. Dominance displays, check. Dismissal of women, check. Envy of women, check. Lack of knowledge of the GC point of view, check.

I have read the whole thread. I have a genuine question for the posters who believe gender identity and including trans women as women is the best way forward. To those posters - I will try my best to use your language so I can communicate this.

If we classify by gender identity, the term 'cis woman' doesn't cover everyone who has female biology. The term 'woman' includes people who do not have female biology, and excludes those afab who do not identify as women, whether they be non-binary, transmen or have another gender identity.

What word are we to use for people who have female biology, when we are talking about issues that affect all people who have female biology, and exclusively people who have female biology?

(I have tried my best, and still feel like you might even take issue with 'people with female biology'.)

For example

• healthcare in general
• pregnancy and birth
• breastfeeding
• abortion
• miscarriage
• menstruation

Is there one term we can use for all the relevant human people in these situations?

Also, as a slight aside, I understand that many young afab non-binary and trans people do not wish to be associated with the terms female and woman. I still think that there should be a term that includes all people with female biology, because those issues can and very likely will affect them in future. I think it's important that they understand our commonalities and be able to opt back in if (like me) they realise the importance/significance of their sexed body as they get older.

Why should transpeople get to use the toilet they choose as opposed to the one provided for their sex? What on earth are all these demands?

I'm starting to think we've long gone from normal transpeople in everyday life to creating a sacred caste who must be loved, centred, worshipped, whatever other bizarre proclamations certain politicians come out with. This means many who are not trans try to piggyback because it feeds their ego, facilitates bullying, makes them feel less inadequate or is a magic word that means they get what they want when they want. A lot of what's going on now is entitled people having a tantrum when they realise rules apply to them too. That's where non-binary comes into it, trans is too much effort so just come up with a state of being that makes you more special than anyone else but where you don't have to buy a new outfit.

Because... this discussion was specifically about toilets for a good couple pages now? And now you seem to be suddenly changing the subject?

Because you made it so. I agree, more inconvenient examples of the effects of poor policy making on women exist.

We are all very happy for binary gender roles to fuck right off. But that doesn’t change the above.

In what way does that need to be more nuanced?

It’s pretty standard for women unless they’ve only ever had very predictable and light periods.

I don’t join these discussions, but I do read and learn from them.
I wonder if some posters can in anyway be willing to just read back and see how unproductive it is to have a discussion where there is no concession to ‘not knowing’ or ‘wondering’ or ‘exploring’? it’s all so polarised it’s difficult to progress. The discussions like this mimic the problem. I can see why it gets like this, but it just entrenches peoples views.
If people hate the binary, you’d think there would be more of a willingness to get into the nuance. Binary thinking (a byproduct of social media)? is rarely informative. It doesn’t grow understanding.
If you completely accept that your beliefs are correct, it’s still ok to admit some areas of them are problematic. And to search for empathy.
For example, ‘trans people should use the toilet of their choice’, but because male born trans people continue to offend sexually at the same rate as men we need to consider the problems traditionally tackled by segregating bathrooms don’t we? Also huge safety problems around safety of trans people born female who do not pass using male bathrooms I should think. (Isn’t it hard to just ignore in any discussion that male born people are a threat to female born people? It would be great if they weren’t, but ignoring that is at the root of the problem with all this I think. Feminists would dearly love if no mitigation’s were required, but they are, aren’t they)? Surely trans people can empathise with women here? They also feel threatened regularly, so perhaps can find a way to get alongside women on the safety issues and concerns?
On the other hand, I do have issue with my views tallying with the political right (as do many feminists)! I don’t like the way the press tackle and stir up issues, but I hope my (learned over many years) ability to stand back and look at what I can see of the situation critically helps to keep me balanced in my views.
It’s also clear that teen girls are transitioning at a phenomenally high rate, should we not at least discuss, for the well-being of these young people, what that could be about? Therapy should always be explorative. We don’t want people who transition to regret their choice or make it for reasons to do with trauma etc do we)?
I love that today’s teens are less ‘binary’ in many many ways, and I have optimism we might land in a less extreme place that is healthier in the long run. But I do strongly feel we have somewhat lost our way getting there, and we always need to keep peoples realities and safety at the heart of things. Surely trans allies can recognise the need for that, and discuss the problems without it being about ‘threat to existence’?
I have no illusion that anyone under 30 gives a shit about my viewpoint, I truly hate identity politics, and acknowledge this may be generational. Believe it or not my parents couldn’t understand my choices either! but I really do give a shit about young people and women’s safety regardless of how they identify, and I hope we can try to get that back to the centre of everyone’s thinking. Why would anyone not centre that?

Just catching up on this thread and lolling at the men that find it astounding that a woman would have spare pants on them. I carry a pair in my handbag at all times! LIke many women. See this is the thing, these entitled men think they know what it is to be a woman and think they are performing it. But they really haven't got a clue what being a woman actually entails. Because it's rooted in female biology, which they don't have.

I'm sure that the females in the locker room are going to be so pleased to see a hard 'thing' suddenly appear.

I have asked to have my previous post withdrawn as I see that Sillystring423 has changed their username to @SpookySeason77.

So here is the withdrawn post updated with the new username:

In one of @SpookySeason77's posts, they claimed that if transwomen were put in a room and stripped naked no one would be able to tell them from women. This post is errant nonsense, along with all the other claims that SpookySeason77 has made.

I am, on the other hand, entertained by SpookySeason773's many feeble attempts at "gotcha" like But you defined the sex class by the ability to produce eggs? If producing eggs isn't what defines the sex class, what is it? What is a sex class?

That partially referred my post in response to one of SpookySeason77's blithering post in which they defined man and woman as "cultural and social categories". I replied that male (note the difference in language between male and man) denoted the class that produces small mobile gametes and female the class that produces large immobile gametes.

My mother had her ovaries removed due to ovarian cancer. She was still female. A former colleague had his testicles removed due to testicular cancer. He was still male.

SpookySeason77's post demonstrate that they are unable to put together clear, consistent arguments.

And now we have the abusive posts.

someone who wants to force others to pretend to perceive them as a member of the opposite sex has no place making policy in this area. their clear psychological distress renders them completely incapable of empathy for others

YY.

The idea that any male either is, or can become a woman is absurd magical thinking. Women are the sex class female and men are the opposite sex class. That's really all there is to it.

Any attack on women's boundaries around men is an example of male entitlement, or the enabling of it by other women, in a time honoured way that some women have always done.

Your complaints about trans women being called women are no different from "sancity of marriage" bullshit.

Offensive bull crap.

98% of sexual crime is perpetrated by males. Transwomen are male. As someone upthread said, the basic entry level requirement of being a transwoman is that you are male.

And at the moment, there is absolutely no objective point at which one could say that a male who identifies as a woman actually becomes a woman and comes out of the high risk category of male and into the low risk category of female. Therefore women are saying no to transwomen in female spaces. Because we already segregate by sex and transwomen are of the male sex.

Nothing like the 'sanctity of marriage' stuff but nice try.

Oh and it's true that when you call us 'transphobic bigots' it does sound just like when religious people call atheists 'heretics/infidels'. You can believe what you like, think of yourself how you like, do what makes you happy, I make no moral judgement on you for that. But what you cannot do is make others believe the same thing.

I haven’t waded my way through the entire thread yet, but please for the love of god, can someone answer the question:

If a ‘woman’ neither has to be born with a female body, nor has to perform or present as such, then how do they know they are a woman? What is this magical woman feeling? How would you know if you felt it?

Sexual assaults,sorry

That was an interesting read. I was trying to research statistics about sexual assaults in prisons, because it's often stated that guards/women are the biggest threat to women in prison. I had not realised that a large proportion of what are recorded as sexual adults are motivated by an attempt to retrieve hidden drugs or phones. I'm not making a point with this,just hadn't considered it previously.

What about the ideology sending female bodies transboys to the male toilets. What does spooky think will happen to these trans people?

[quote SpookySeason77]@OldCrone
The overwhelming majority of rapes committed against female prisoners are committed by guards, not transgender inmates. I don't see any of you saying a peep about that little fact for some reason.

Almost as if incancerated women aren't actually the concern, but rather, they are just one of many convenient rhetorical tools to stoke hatred against transgender people.[/quote]
That’s because there’s way way more guards than transgender prisoners in women’s prisons.

Self id comes in that will change dramatically.

But trans women and trans men do feel comfortable using women's and men's restrooms respectively, especially in later stages of their transition to the point they blend in without causing any trouble, I see no reason why they shouldn't.

Ugh. Typical cares about own comfort but not the comfort and privacy of females approach. It's so fucking arrogant.