DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

DD I don't want to discuss this with you right now.

However I want you to go away and consider the following:

Have you read what JKR said? You should always read at source information that is controversial to ensure you are not getting a biased version of events.

What part of what JKR said is controversial? You need to be able to quote and to articulate why, not just repeat what others have said is wrong to put a good argument forward.

Why do you think it is acceptable to shout terf at some? Why do you think it is ok to abuse people and call anyone names in a civilised society, even if you disagree with someone? If we all shout and scream at people we disagree with, what do you think would happen?

Do you think calling me names, will help me change my views or further entrench how I feel?

Do you think an argument is a strong one if the only response you have is to resort to personal attacks rather than making the argument on a point by point basis stating your case calmly about why I should change my mind? Do you win hearts and minds by alienating people?

How and why exactly do you think women are discriminated against in the workplace?

Stonewall define homosexuality on the basis of gender not sex. This is regarded as institutionally homophobic by some. Are you ok with women who don't want to have sex with penises being abused and discriminated against? Why is this not misogynistic and homophobic?

Go away and think about these things, and then we will have a civilised adult conversation about it. And maybe you can convince me about where I am going wrong and am bigoted

Until you can, I don't think it appropriate to have conversations about this subject.

Keep being overly reasonable and don't rise to the bait. Keep asking questions and turning everything into a question back at her.

The way to break cult thinking is to get people to think for themselves. So continuely framing things back at people in the form of a question is really effective and makes people question themselves in the process whether they like it or not. Sow the seeds of doubt and work on the cracks and weaknesses of this subject.

Chesney I think you'll find its always the mum's fault.

GC people seem to take grave offense to trans women calling themselves women or lesbians on their own social media profiles.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic and is also covered by hate crime bills unlike misogyny. For a person of the male sex to call themselves a lesbian, they are implying that same sex attraction should not exist and that is utterly homophobic .

[quote BloodinGutters]@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

‘I can do what I want when I want because I said so and I’m the bestest and you are a big poop poo head if you say I can’t so neh neh neh neh’ about sums it up.[/quote]
Yep. That's pretty much the measure of it. I am amused by the spittle-flecked posts of rage and the use of the royal "we".

There is no lie in the fact that you wish to keep people trapped in the social categories of "man" and "woman" against their will.

Okay, given that you see man as a social category, can you please expand on what that social category is?

Imagine that I'm an alien from the planet Zog, studying human culture with no preconceptions, and explain it to me.

Just once, it would be great if we could have a TRA come on here and initiate an interesting, thought provoking conversation.

But no. We get garbled, hyperbolic nonsense and a very clear indication that they do not understand - the Equality Act, what the term GC actually means, or any of the finer points of the recent legal cases in regards to protected beliefs.

It's unbelievably tiresome.

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"So if you're a girl who looks/acts "like a boy" then you might not be a girl and should be encouraged to be "trans" and get hormones and surgery"
"Because it says if you don't fit a feminine stereotype, you can't be a girl."
That's not what any trans person is saying at all.

We are saying that trans people should be able to medically transition if they experience physical dysphoria which has NOTHING to do with behavior.

Why do you have to keep lying about what we believe?[/quote]
I don't know who "we" is but it's really not cool to accuse people of lying, particularly when they have done no such thing.

[quote SillyStrings423]@BloodinGutters
What's so regressive about people not being constrained by the gender identities they were assigned at birth?
And before you say some nonsense about dresses, plenty trans women wear pants. Gender identity is not dictated or constrained by clothing or biology.[/quote]

"Gender identities are assigned at birth"?

I am confused.

So you are born male or female.

Some unseen person or ethereal being assigns a gender identity to you somewhere, your brain? Your foot? Your tied up umbilical cord? Who is this person doing the assignment?

But when you grow up and think you are born in the wrong body it means that someone did you a rude service and gave you the wrong coloured identity? Where do you put your old one? Where do you get your new one from? Can you sue the assignee? Your Mum maybe, or the mid-wife?

Someone please explain......!

Poor OP

Frothy McFrotherson has made sure she's not going to get any more advice, haven't they?

Bloody hell. Should have refreshed the thread.

Even if you deny, against all logic, that they are social categories.

You sound very ill informed are rather confused.

@SillyStrings423

We are saying that trans people should be able to medically transition if they experience physical dysphoria which has NOTHING to do with behavior.

But the groups that claim to speak for trans people, like Stonewall, now say that dysphoria is not necessary to be considered trans and be accepted as your preferred gender or genders. Similarly, medical transition is not required (*).

So while your point may apply to some trans people, it's not enough to dismiss all the aspects of gender-first politics that gender critical people are concerned about.

Did you not know this?

(* and that's a good thing, we should be doing everything we can to help people live safe and happy lives in their own bodies, with medical intervention for mental distress as a very very very last resort.)

If people are something then they don’t need to identify as it.

@1Week
"While anyone can express themselves however they want, in policy and law biological sex matters when biology matters, in healthcare, for safeguarding, in attraction."
GC people seem to take grave offense to trans women calling themselves women or lesbians on their own social media profiles.
That is far from the realm of policy.

Being GC is a an euphemism for being transphobic

How so, sillystring?

I think they are saying that a bearded person of the male sex can identify as a woman and we have to accept them as that. As a woman they may be lesbian or heterosexual. If the former they would expect lesbian females to include them in their dating pool and if the latter they would expect straight men to consider them as potential sexual partners. They would also expect to share communal sleeping accommodation,showers,changing rooms toilets with other women.

Even if you deny, against all logic, that they are social categories.

They aren't. It's a biological category that encapsulates your age and sex into one word. Purely biological. The idea that women should behave femininely and fit the feminine gender role is the social part... But we don't need to attach the feminine gender role to a biological term.

the frothers are always drawn to these thread aren't they

They seem to be drawn to every thread in this topic at the moment. It reminds me of when you are building a sandcastle on the beach, and the sea starts to come in and you start frantically shovelling sand wherever it will go to prevent collapse of your beautifully constructed castle. The TRAs see the sea coming for their castle.

Apologies, I’ve said more than JK said above, please don’t take my post as a summary of her writing on the subject. It’s intended as examples of how to break it down. Then when she realised how unfair each situation is, you can talk about how giving one person rights should not adversely affect another person’s existing rights - so giving trans people rights is great, AS LONG AS it does not erode the hard-won rights of women.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

‘I can do what I want when I want because I said so and I’m the bestest and you are a big poop poo head if you say I can’t so neh neh neh neh’ about sums it up.

SillyStrings should familiarise themself with Mumsnet Moderation Principles which are helpfully pinned at the top of this board. In particular

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.
And
If you cannot accept the above principles and persistently ignore them, then I’m afraid you need to accept that Mumsnet isn’t the right place for you.

You've accused all GC posters of being transphobic.

Do better

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"No one is assigned a gender identity at birth. People have their sex observed at birth"
... And then they are assigned a gender identity based on what is observed.

penis/vagina – physical characteristics, part of biological sex
boy/girl – social identities, assigned based on the observed physical characteristics, not part of biological sex.

"GC feminists say that people should not be constrained by these gender stereotypes and expectations."
Except when it comes to what they're allowed to call themselves, right? God forbid a "male" uses feminine name or pronouns.
Even though feminine name and pronouns are not a part of biology.[/quote]
This is not too far from what we believe Sillystrings.

While anyone can express themselves however they want, in policy and law biological sex matters when biology matters, in healthcare, for safeguarding, in attraction.

That's it really! 99% of the time we are all in accord. We just want to keep our language and spaces, and minors given much more space and time before making irreversible decisions

Nobody is "assigned a gender identity at birth" where do people get these ideas from?

They are assigned gender roles though. Come out as a girl (young female) biologically, then you get assigned the feminine gender role/expectations by society.