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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Great. Son now says he’s trans.

215 replies

dangermouseisace · 23/10/2021 17:08

I am doing my best non judgemental listening but oh my god.

Middle child is “non binary”. Eldest today says the reason he’s not eating properly and why he was unhappy 4 years ago is because he’ll never be happy as a man, and he wants hormones surgery the lot.

I have been clear about my opinion re gender throughout their lives. I am glad they feel able to speak to me but I don’t know what to do. I’ve said I’ll book him a dr’s appointment, and suggested counselling. I feel it’s a case of too much internet but it’s hard to control that- they find old devices if you put restrictions on, and everything works off the internet these days.

My children clearly have their struggles but I feel a failure as a mother as I don’t feel strong enough to deal with them. I’ve already had time off work with stress this week. I feel I just cannot cope with anything any more. What the hell can I do?

OP posts:
BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 22:39

@MishyJDI

hmmm. How about a different tact? Let him/her explore their identity. Love them, and let them work it out? Try not to be too judgemental or rely on the critics on here. It's about your child and them exploring what works for them. I hope things work out for you. x
Op is loving her child. Part of loving a child is parents protecting them. What a smarmy, underhanded critique of ops parenting.
ShrillSiren · 23/10/2021 22:38

Why are you misgendering a child? Surely that's a hate crime now?

MishyJDI · 23/10/2021 22:35

hmmm. How about a different tact? Let him/her explore their identity. Love them, and let them work it out? Try not to be too judgemental or rely on the critics on here. It's about your child and them exploring what works for them. I hope things work out for you. x

NoWireHangersEver · 23/10/2021 22:32

Do they do any regular organised activities outside of screens? Anything where they can reconnect with their physical selves? Can you give them this opportunity?

Even just reading books (anything about adolescent males) is a good idea

Also some questions to ask either of them:

Do they use Discord? (multiple reports of young men being groomed to transition through this app)

Are they on Reddit? Can you look at which subreddits they're on? (same thing going on there)

Are they fans of anime/manga/other Japanese media? (not attempting to discriminate, these fandoms are breeding grounds for gender ideology amongst young men. You could probably just start a conversation here and branch out - watch episodes with them, what do you think of the female characters in this series, etc. It's worth asking about their media intake in general and the way women are presented)

Are there any specific trans/non binary people they look up to? Can you see videos/social media posts etc from these people and watch them together? (because it's easier to refute the ideology when it's in front of both you and your son)

Would suggest trying to very discreetly investigate the topic of porn use. Especially 'femdom', Japanese animated porn ('hentai') and 'sissification'. I know this is awful to think about as a mother (or as a woman, full-stop!) but it is waaay more accessible to young people than it ever has been before, and has the potential to really alienate people from their bodies.

RepentMotherfucker · 23/10/2021 22:07

@toocold54

I work with a boy a similar age who claims to be trans (wants to be female). His parents are dead against it and have threatened legal action against the school if we go along with it.

This boy has been in and out of hospital more times than I can count.
He is anorexic, self harms and has tried to commit suicide and come close several times.
He is not allowed to walk around in his own incase he jumps from an upper floor, we’re not allowed to have anything sharp that he can slit his wrists with etc - and this is all because he doesn’t feel comfortable in his own body.

For me personally if calling someone a she instead of a he or vice versa and letting them use the unisex/disabled toilet to go to the bathroom and change for PE means that this person won’t self harm that day then I’d let them.

I think with teens you kind of just have to go with the flow. Lots of times it’s just a phase and they just want to see if you’ll support them.
If it’s not a phase then you can deal with that in a couple years time.

Way too much that is identifying here about a very vulnerable child who could easily be identified by peers, fellow staff or other parents. I don't think this complies with your safeguarding responsibilities and I have reported it as such.
toocold54 · 23/10/2021 22:07

He never went through male puberty and looks like a girl, yet is still suicidal.

That makes me so sad.
The boy I know gets therapy to try to get to the bottom of his suicidal thoughts.
I do actually believe some people are genuinely born in the wrong body but this is a tiny percentage of the people who claim to be, often they don’t feel themselves or like themselves so put it down to wanting to be transgender when it’s not.

If my child ever speaks to me about wanting to transition I would be supportive and go with the flow but refuse anything that is permanent until they’re at an age that they can choose for themselves.

nolongersurprised · 23/10/2021 21:58

I know a boy (now transgirl) like that toocold but already enmeshed in gender services before they suicidal ideation started and parents who were on board so when the mental health distress started gender issues were considered the reason and there was a readily available hormonal answer. Puberty blockers from 10, because otherwise they’d kill themselves and cross sex hormones from 15 for the same reason (not in the UK).

He never went through male puberty and looks like a girl, yet is still suicidal. No friends, no social life, no fertility (too suicidal to wait for sufficient maturation to allow for sperm retrieval before blockers) does everything with his mum, no longer at school.

toocold54 · 23/10/2021 21:45

Absolutely allow access to a third space for toilets and changing, but teaching a child it’s ok to keep secret with adults by affirming pronouns at school when parents have been clear you mustn’t is a safeguarding fail.

Yes that’s why we don’t do it.
We have told parents that they can access the disabled toilets which does help them a lot but they are still called he and have to do boys PE etc.
Their name is (similar to) Samuel but wants to be samatha which the parents won’t allow so we just say sam.

So we have managed to come up with a compromise but the parents completely dismissing his feelings without even having a conversation makes the situation way worse.

I also knew a girl who wanted to transition and her parents were very supportive to a point and she was extremely happy with herself and has now gone past the phase and doesn’t feel that way anymore.

So I definitely think it’s important to have supportive parents even if they don’t 100% agree with it.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 21:39

@Mummyoflittledragon

I totally agree *@BloodinGutters*. The video was delivered during 2 form lessons in lockdown. Dd was already aware of my GC views and she called me to come and watch the video with her but the first half was almost finished. I then watched the second half the following day, effing and blinding along. I wish I’d had the foresight to video it. The school said they’d display it on the website but never did, which I imagine was due to my email.
It’s completely crazy that we should have to think this way. To feel so suspicious of the very people supposed to safeguard kids.

I feel like I go into schools prepped for war. I get everything emailed or minutes or send follow up emails if a conversation wasn’t minuted. I can quote school policies and d of e guidelines and laws at them if put on the spot. I am recording everything so it’s ready for formal complaints if necessary. I’m obsessively pedantic about not letting anything slip past us and I know they think I’m fussing over nothing but I can’t understand how they find it difficult to follow d of e guidance. I have such little tolerance for stupidity, and I’m not waiting until they’ve groomed my kids ready for the tra’s to get in there. Because my two have autism and they don’t have any resilience. And it’s a very real risk that despite our open and direct communication of biological facts at home that they would be the exact demographic at most risk from this. And I can’t live supporting them through regret of being sterilised just because they wanted to escape puberty, boys bullying girls and because they didn’t like skirts or sparkly things enough.

Figuring out which school poses the least safeguarding risk to kids and then fighting with the school to reduce that risk is a surreal way to live. But it’s better than head in the sand approach many parents seem happier with.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 21:27

Point being that by affirming pronouns you are increasing the risk of Sui & si

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 21:26

@toocold54

I work with a boy a similar age who claims to be trans (wants to be female). His parents are dead against it and have threatened legal action against the school if we go along with it.

This boy has been in and out of hospital more times than I can count.
He is anorexic, self harms and has tried to commit suicide and come close several times.
He is not allowed to walk around in his own incase he jumps from an upper floor, we’re not allowed to have anything sharp that he can slit his wrists with etc - and this is all because he doesn’t feel comfortable in his own body.

For me personally if calling someone a she instead of a he or vice versa and letting them use the unisex/disabled toilet to go to the bathroom and change for PE means that this person won’t self harm that day then I’d let them.

I think with teens you kind of just have to go with the flow. Lots of times it’s just a phase and they just want to see if you’ll support them.
If it’s not a phase then you can deal with that in a couple years time.

The problem is that risk of suicide increases in socially transitioned kids. And medical transition increases it even further iirc.

Absolutely allow access to a third space for toilets and changing, but teaching a child it’s ok to keep secret with adults by affirming pronouns at school when parents have been clear you mustn’t is a safeguarding fail.

LittleBearPad · 23/10/2021 21:24

@toocold54

I work with a boy a similar age who claims to be trans (wants to be female). His parents are dead against it and have threatened legal action against the school if we go along with it.

This boy has been in and out of hospital more times than I can count.
He is anorexic, self harms and has tried to commit suicide and come close several times.
He is not allowed to walk around in his own incase he jumps from an upper floor, we’re not allowed to have anything sharp that he can slit his wrists with etc - and this is all because he doesn’t feel comfortable in his own body.

For me personally if calling someone a she instead of a he or vice versa and letting them use the unisex/disabled toilet to go to the bathroom and change for PE means that this person won’t self harm that day then I’d let them.

I think with teens you kind of just have to go with the flow. Lots of times it’s just a phase and they just want to see if you’ll support them.
If it’s not a phase then you can deal with that in a couple years time.

That’s tragic. Do you genuinely think that calling him she however would resolve everything else?
Mummyoflittledragon · 23/10/2021 21:22

I totally agree @BloodinGutters. The video was delivered during 2 form lessons in lockdown. Dd was already aware of my GC views and she called me to come and watch the video with her but the first half was almost finished. I then watched the second half the following day, effing and blinding along. I wish I’d had the foresight to video it. The school said they’d display it on the website but never did, which I imagine was due to my email.

toocold54 · 23/10/2021 21:20

I work with a boy a similar age who claims to be trans (wants to be female). His parents are dead against it and have threatened legal action against the school if we go along with it.

This boy has been in and out of hospital more times than I can count.
He is anorexic, self harms and has tried to commit suicide and come close several times.
He is not allowed to walk around in his own incase he jumps from an upper floor, we’re not allowed to have anything sharp that he can slit his wrists with etc - and this is all because he doesn’t feel comfortable in his own body.

For me personally if calling someone a she instead of a he or vice versa and letting them use the unisex/disabled toilet to go to the bathroom and change for PE means that this person won’t self harm that day then I’d let them.

I think with teens you kind of just have to go with the flow. Lots of times it’s just a phase and they just want to see if you’ll support them.
If it’s not a phase then you can deal with that in a couple years time.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 21:15

[quote Mummyoflittledragon]This may come from school. But there is a lot of grooming online. My dd’s former school has been captured by stonewall and broadcast a propaganda video created by one of the teachers during lockdown, which contravened the DofE guidelines. As a result, it was shelved but the damage for lots of children had been done.

You may find this podcast of use and it talks about the grooming. grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/grooming-its-different-for-boys/comments[/quote]
I think every other risk outside of school has some aspect of schools to counteract that.

Kids are at risk of so much online, with peers and within their families. Schools are supposed to be the safety net. They may not be able to fix anything but they all have policies/training geared at tackling extremism, grooming, abuse, drugs and so on.

I can’t think of any other examples of risk posed by social contagion that schools are either unintentionally not safeguarding kids from because they are lost themselves, and don’t really understand why the d of e guidance has changed, or that they are actively promoting in schools.

It’s the equivalent of schools handing cutters razor blades or pointing them in the direction of pro ana sites.

Parents need to make it our business to know every policy, every pshe lesson plan, every organisation that’s in our kids schools, and don’t accept schools word that they meet d of e guidance or that outside organisations are working together compliant. And then get familiar with the grievance procedures. And don’t wait to do this until it’s effected the kids.

Oblomov21 · 23/10/2021 21:06

The fact is if you want to be a woman but are born a man, you just can't. That's the sadness of trans. You want what you can't have.

Ilikeautumnbest · 23/10/2021 21:02

The op is merely saying that when one boy told the other that the doll was for girls she told them not to be such a muppet & that any kid can play with any toy. From what I can gather.

This is how I understood what OP was saying. And given her DCs age she will have started this before transgender was such a big thing - and challenging stereotypes was definitely a positive thing - especially for liberal/leftie parents.

OP I know others have said it but your teenage children are talking to you in a way many teens can't talk to their parents. Flowers

CrazyCatLazy · 23/10/2021 20:56

@LittleBearPad

Not always. My neighbour refers to her trans daughter and she/her when we are in a group conversation over the fence, with the daughter present.

Seems rather performative. It’s pretty rude to say he/she when the individual is standing there

Not really, it’s general chit chat and very normal conversation that anybody would have.
Zebradanio · 23/10/2021 20:56

I would suspect op has made sure they understand the dangers that gender ideology can potentially present to children. The best weapon anyone can have, to reduce the risk of harm to themselves, is actual knowledge. Not made up knowledge. Doesn't everyone want their children to be safe and know the truth in order to make the best decisions for themselves?

Mummyoflittledragon · 23/10/2021 20:55

This may come from school. But there is a lot of grooming online. My dd’s former school has been captured by stonewall and broadcast a propaganda video created by one of the teachers during lockdown, which contravened the DofE guidelines. As a result, it was shelved but the damage for lots of children had been done.

You may find this podcast of use and it talks about the grooming. grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/grooming-its-different-for-boys/comments

worriedstar · 23/10/2021 20:53

thinking of you OP...it's a tough position to be in, I know.
All the posters who say they'd say this or wouldn't say that etc...you really have no idea until you are in the position of the OP and it affects your family. OP make sure you get some support for yourself too x

NoNotMeNoSiree · 23/10/2021 20:38

@YoungForNow

What do you mean , you've been clear re gender throughout their lives?
I was thinking the same, not sure what that means? Do you mean you've been telling them your stance all their lives?
DdraigGoch · 23/10/2021 20:34

@CorrBlimeyGG

You'll only fail them if you reject them for what they are. Some people are transgender. Accept it or lose your child (and give your head one massive shake).
Some people are anorexic. Should we accept them for who they are too? Or should we try to help them?
BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 20:33

@JojobaFromOctober

I assume OP means gender in the conventional feminist sense of the word. The separation of sex and gender is a useful concept within feminism. It's a useful way to talk about the boundaries between our sexed bodies and the sexist expectations and roles that are imposed upon us, that change across time and culture.

It's when people started talking about gender as an internal essence that everything went wrong. I refuse to surrender the word, though, and still use it to talk about external social pressures/norms that enforce male dominance and female submission. Gender is bollocks because it's how sexist ideas are enforced and it hurts everyone, especially women and girls, but it's not bullshit as an idea unless you think that masculine and feminine are the same thing as male and female or somehow don't believe that we live in a society where there are ideas about what is masculine or feminine.

It's clear to me that when OP said she'd been clear about her views on gender, she meant her views about the relationship between what our society considers masculine/feminine and the material reality of being male/female.

This ^^

I don’t understand how anyone on a feminist board wouldn’t get this.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 20:28

[quote YearsSinceISawYou]@BloodinGutters

Yes, your impression is probably correct but why does that even need talking about? Let them be. If a boy wants to play with Barbie or a girl play rugby, then just let them.

It doesn't need talking about. The words "gender ideology" never need to be mentioned and I believe, in this climate, does more harm than good.

I can say, hand on heart, that if a 13 year old came to me-as in the OP- and told me they were non-binary with demands of non-binary pronouns, I would totally ignore them.

Might they be unhappy? Maybe? But I would rather they were unhappy for a bit as a young teenager than be unhappy for the rest of their lives as an adult because I had encouraged them in something-probably a fad- which for many, can lead to mental health problems and a lifetime of misery.

There would be no doctor's appointments, no counselling, no getting on a treadmill which seems pretty difficult to get off and for what?

If they announced the same thing when they were over 18, I might have a different approach but at 13? 15? No. it is my job to discourage shit which they don't understand and which might only be exploited by others who won't care if my child's life is ruined by all this bollocks.

So, I might be wrong but gender, pro-nouns and all the rest of it is not up for discussion in my house with young teenagers who don't know their arse from their elbow.[/quote]
It needs talked about because sex role stereotypes are socially conditioned. There’s decades worth of social studies on the impact of socialisation of sex role stereotypes and how consistently all people reinforce those, even subconsciously. On top of all the kids tv, internet, books and so on socialising that boys should like certain things and boys other ones. And this is amplified by other kids at school reinforces the idea that sex determines which toys or colours and so on that kids should choose.

The op is merely saying that when one boy told the other that the doll was for girls she told them not to be such a muppet & that any kid can play with any toy. From what I can gather.

I’d also be telling my kids they can’t have puberty blockers as kids. We laugh about how the geldings aren’t trans mares and that girls can’t be boys & vice versa. But it isn’t necessarily that simple all the time. Both of my kids are already under camhs for adhd and autism. As it is they just get meds prescribed (first line treatment for Adhd) and wouldn’t have a hope in hell of accessing camhs anxiety support because their anxiety would stop them. Which I’m now grateful for. Because I’m willing to bet that kids already under camhs or kids who can take themselves of to the gp for a referral would get hcp responding with affirmation no matter the parents views.

But being that girls with autism are massively over represented in both kids referred to gids and in the detrans population I've been checking through schools policies very closely and have already told prospective secondary schools we’ll be emailing concerns and the literature shortly and following up formally if necessary. I think one of the biggest problems with this is that schools are pushing gender ideology, either unintentionally because they have no idea how to discuss it without breaching the d of e guidance, or intentionally because some staff want the rainbow brownie points and are happy to throw kids safeguarding out of the window. And most parents have zero idea until their kids come home with their brains warped. By which point it can be too late for some, especially the more vulnerable women ones like my girls.