Page 2 | ‘Gender assigned at birth’

DraintheBlood · 2021-10-22T09:25:11+00:00

What’s the evidence base for this? When school claim it’s from the NHS website then what do I counter that with so they comply with the ‘medically factual information and evidence base’ that the d of e updated guidance insists on? I’ve sent ssa & tt links. Everything else is fixed but this is bs. It’s only something that’s addressed if other kids bring it up, but even then I think it matters that this is clear and in line with guidance and don’t want brushed of with passing the responsibility onto nhs website as if that’s enough. Help please.

ANewCreation · 22/10/2021 12:03

If it helps, you will see those NHS pages were published in 2018 at the height of the GRA reform debacle and, particularly in the case of the second one, have long passed their review date. They should be retired.

Keywords like gender (when sex is meant) and 'assigned' always appear to be evidence of "controversial charity's Stonewall’s" lobbying.

This NHS link is more up to date publication wise and replaces an earlier, equally incoherent, genderist 2018 version, although even it now needs some revision due to the Keira Bell decisions.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

I would be interested to know what the school thinks 'gender' means and push them to define it.

I might say, "Sex refers to our male or female reproductive status and, in UK law under the Equality Act 2010, a woman is described as a female of any age and a man as a male of any age. Sex is determined at conception, can be observed in utero and is recorded at birth.

Deciding whether then to dress that newborn baby in pink or blue can only be one based on sex-based stereotypes around masculinity or femininity ie Gender. Surely Gender/sex-based stereotypes are harmful?

What does the school mean by Gender?

Original poster

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 11:57

@lazylinguist

Ridiculous and wrong. Doctors do not 'assign gender' at birth. Why would they be considering 'gender' at all? What they observe (not assign) is sex.

As if they hand over a blue romper or a pink dress or yellow baby grow at birth.

I don’t see why it’s so hard for them to correct such a basic fact. They teach little kids, how are basic biological facts such a confusing concept to them they must quote the nhs and can’t write definitions that are inline with the d of e themselves?

OP posts:

Original poster

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 11:54

[quote Alcemeg]Would citation [1] from this article by Maya Forstater be useful?

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735/rr-0[/quote]
I’ll keep this in mind, but I’m not sure school would be willing to accept this over their explanation that ‘it’s from the nhs so must meet the guidance’.

OP posts:

lazylinguist · 22/10/2021 11:53

Ridiculous and wrong. Doctors do not 'assign gender' at birth. Why would they be considering 'gender' at all? What they observe (not assign) is sex.

Original poster

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 11:52

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

OP I would email SSAUK or Baroness Nicholson about this specific point or see if *@2fallsagain* has some useful advice.

Do you have the baroness’ email? Is it just the conservatives for women one? I can’t see one just for the baroness by googling.

Have emailed ssa & sent a message here to the poster you mentioned.

Thanks.

OP posts:

Original poster

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 11:50

@Clymene

I mean this bit on the nhs gender dysphoria page:

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be.

Is just plain wrong. Biological sex isn't assigned at birth. As a pp said, it's determined at conception. It is observed.

Could you link that exact page so I can forward it please?

OP posts:

NecessaryScene · 22/10/2021 11:43

even if gender identity exists (I don't believe it does) they aren't male and female - those are sexes

I saw someone making that point the other day - if you're going to invent a new way to classify people with 100s of possible boxes, it would be best to avoid confusion by not naming 2 of them with the same words as used for sex....

Clymene · 22/10/2021 11:42

I mean this bit on the nhs gender dysphoria page:

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be.

Is just plain wrong. Biological sex isn't assigned at birth. As a pp said, it's determined at conception. It is observed.

Clymene · 22/10/2021 11:40

@Marelle

Wtf?! That’s absolutely shocking! Following with interest because this needs addressing when even the NHS is giving false information.

It's unbelievably crap

Alcemeg · 22/10/2021 11:38

Would citation [1] from this article by Maya Forstater be useful?

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735/rr-0

Original poster

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 11:23

@Peanutsandchilli

Sex is assigned at conception. Sex is (usually) observed and recorded at birth. If not, blood tests are available to determine sex.

Gender doesn't come into it and shouldn't be used when discussing medical facts. There can't be an evidence base for gender being assigned at birth because it's simply impossible.

But I need an air tight argument to prove this to school because they’ve said it’s from the nhs website as if that ensures it’s medically factual, and therefore complies with the d of e guidance.

But it doesn’t, and they are responsible for ensuring it does. So I need a way of making that clear without just reiterating the above.

OP posts:

Peanutsandchilli · 22/10/2021 11:15

Sex is assigned at conception. Sex is (usually) observed and recorded at birth. If not, blood tests are available to determine sex.

Gender doesn't come into it and shouldn't be used when discussing medical facts. There can't be an evidence base for gender being assigned at birth because it's simply impossible.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2021 11:15

Yes, exactly. It's all arbitrary.

GoodieMoomin · 22/10/2021 11:12

@ArabellaScott but even if gender identity exists (I don't believe it does) they aren't male and female - those are sexes

Alcemeg · 22/10/2021 11:05

You're right! See, I did say I might be talking shit! Texting on a very boring motorway.

Do they still do that "corrective" surgery to align genitals with the team's best guess?

NecessaryScene · 22/10/2021 10:59

You're think of "sex assigned at birth" in the context of the past issues (in the UK at least, some countries still lack the right resources) where clinicians took a best guess at whether a baby with a DSD might be a boy or a girl.

And more specifically the "assignment" was often in the form of some sort of "surgical correction" to make the genitals more "typical" for a sex.

ArabellaScott · 22/10/2021 10:59

[quote GoodieMoomin]I just looked at the website out of curiosity and cannot believe my eyes!

"We now believe that gender identity is on a spectrum, with male at one end, female at the other and a "diversity" of gender identities in between. These can include male and female, non-binary or even agender (no gender)."

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/think-your-child-might-be-trans-or-non-binary/[/quote]
Gender identity could be on a spectrum, though that is suggestive of it being based on a binary model, which seems regressive and unlikely.

Sex, as any fule kno, is bimodal.

NecessaryScene · 22/10/2021 10:58

Right, but the meaning there is not "gender identity" in the religious sense of gender activists, it is "belief about actual sex". Using the word "gender" just creates more confusion.

"Sex recorded at birth" would be fine, but that's not a synonym for sex, in the case where it turns out to be wrong due to a DSD. And using it any other context sense. It's always actual sex that really matters, not paperwork. No-one should be scuppered by an admin error, so we shouldn't be implying that you would be treated differently had an admin error been made.

And someone with a DSD-based incorrect sex record is not the same as a trans person.

Someone with an incorrect belief about their sex who finds out the truth later is totally different from someone with a correct belief about their sex who decides they want to "live as" the opposite sex (or even acquires an incorrect belief about their sex, in extremis).

DdraigGoch · 22/10/2021 10:57

@Alcemeg

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

You're think of "sex assigned at birth" in the context of the past issues (in the UK at least, some countries still lack the right resources) where clinicians took a best guess at whether a baby with a DSD might be a boy or a girl. Medical science has moved on since when so that circumstance no longer applies, various scans and tests can diagnose the precise DSD.

Original poster

DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 10:57

@DdraigGoch

Still, if they're saying "gender assigned at birth", it's more accurate than the "sex assigned at birth" nonsense.

Sex is randomly decided at conception by whichever sperm cell is successful. Gender on the other hand is merely a social construct which often shows up as soon as the sex of a baby is known. So when relatives hear "it's a girl" and immediately start shopping for pink baby grows with "be kind" printed upon them, they are assigning gender norms onto this baby.

In many cases of course gender could be said to be "assigned before birth" when those awful 'gender reveal parties' with their pink/blue vomit-inducing tackiness are held.

But transgender= people who identify with the opposite gender to which they are assigned at birth only makes sense for those who believe in gender ideology.

The d of e guidelines were updated to ensure that an ideology isn’t taught as fact and doesn’t take priority over science.

They could say transgender = people who identify with the opposite sex role stereotypes than the ones applied to the sex they are/sex they were observed at birth. That isn’t difficult to correct and is in line with guidance.

How can transgender = people who identify with the opposite gender they are assigned at birth not reinforce stereotypes or teach children they can be born in the wrong body?

OP posts:

flowery · 22/10/2021 10:55

I had to fill in a government form recently asking what gender identity I’d been assigned at birth. Not even just gender, gender identity.

I complained and informed the relevant senior person that none of the respondents would have had a midwife with a clipboard present at their birth assigning them a gender identity.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/10/2021 10:55

allEmbarrassingHadrosaurus Oops sorry - I had no intention of dragging in whataboutery, especailly not for a vulnerable population.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/10/2021 10:54

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

'Sex observed at birth' would be far more accurate and unambiguous.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/10/2021 10:53

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

You may be right but surely in that case the term is being widely misused? Gender is only "assigned" in the (rare) cases where sex is ambiguous.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/10/2021 10:51

@Alcemeg

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

There are many threads on here where you can explore the topic and understand the size of the population to which you refer. A population that, understandably, asks not to be brought into conversations/threads like this as a Gotcha/Whatabout/defence shield.