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Original poster

Trans cyclist Natalie Van Gogh retires from women’s cycling at 47

34 replies

CatsOperatingInGangs · 21/10/2021 15:49

I know Laurel Hubbard springs to mind when we talk about older trans athletes in women’s sport but Van Gogh has been competing in women’s elite cycling for 16 years since transitioning.

Van Gogh avoids scrutiny mainly because women’s cycling is not covered much in the UK unless it’s the Olympics. It’s an incredibly tough life carving out a career in women’s cycling as there not much money and less opportunities for women as there’s fewer teams than in the men’s category.

It makes me sad to think how many women have been denied a place in their own sport due to NVG being included.

cyclingtips.com/2021/10/i-am-just-natalie-not-natalie-the-transgender-cyclist/

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GonadTheGaul · 24/10/2021 07:55

@Helleofabore

GonadTheGaul

Curiously, I keep coming across the argument that it is all about ‘scale’. That it is not many so women should just shut the fuck up and take it.

Those who push that line may or may not see the issues but they clearly prioritise males over females. Whether they accept it or not.

The 'tiny' number of transwomen who would be affected by being excluded from female sports is still smaller than the number of women who are pushed down a rung of the ladder or cannot take part at all due to the inclusion of even one transwoman. The scale argument should be about the tiny number of male people who are 'disadvantaged' by not being able to compete in the category of their choice, and have to compete in the category of their sex, like everyone else. This tiny number of people should accept that they cannot disadvantage a larger number of sportswomen in this way and either accept competing in their sex category or push for their own category. Women had to push for many years to get female sports, against plenty of opposition. I'm sure trans sports would be facilitated, after all there are plenty of people and organisations interested in promoting sport for trans people (assuming they are interested in promoting sport for trans people, rather than just promoting trans people getting into the female category).

It's also ridiculous to claim that women should accept a 'tiny' amount of unfairness when it's easy to eliminate that unfairness by having a female only category. As you say, it's still about prioritising males over females, even when it would be easy not to.

MrGHardy · 23/10/2021 23:19

What a freaking joke. I guess I have a career in cycling left in me.

Original poster
CatsOperatingInGangs · 23/10/2021 13:06

I’ve no doubt that many who push make inclusion have skin in the game.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 23/10/2021 08:46

GonadTheGaul

Curiously, I keep coming across the argument that it is all about ‘scale’. That it is not many so women should just shut the fuck up and take it.

Those who push that line may or may not see the issues but they clearly prioritise males over females. Whether they accept it or not.

IrishMumInLondon2020 · 23/10/2021 08:45

He’s a bloody disgrace with the morals of an alley cat.

GonadTheGaul · 23/10/2021 08:43

We have the evidence now to show that males, whatever drugs they take and whatever surgery they've had, cannot compete in female sport in a way that's safe or fair. How many women have missed out on wins, podiums, racing opportunities, pro contracts, and careers because of these appalling policies?

334bu · 22/10/2021 20:21

No doubt some women excel in ultra sports. However, the huge discrepancy between male and female performances in most sports can't be denied.

Original poster
CatsOperatingInGangs · 22/10/2021 18:40

It’s forced teaming, putting men and women together despite a whole raft of issues that female athletes have to put up with that male athletes don’t.

OP posts:
BrandineDelRoy · 22/10/2021 18:33

Related to my previous comment: www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/nike-runner-mary-cain-female-athlete-triad-reds-2019-11%3famp

BrandineDelRoy · 22/10/2021 18:29

"We always think women's bodies have a limit but that is a limit we are taught socially." This quote infuriates me--especially when the issue of the female athlete triad among young women is finally getting recognized.

334bu · 22/10/2021 17:08

Probably could have gone a few more years like 50 year old Gabriel Ludwig playing basketball with college students

Trans cyclist Natalie Van Gogh retires from women’s cycling at 47
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 22/10/2021 17:00

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NiceGerbil · 22/10/2021 02:34

Didn't do sport from 21.

Picked up a bike at 31!!!

'
“I started living again after that decision was made. It was like being born again in a way. People are always amazed I am 47 but I always feel like I missed about 10 years of my life and that makes me 10 years younger mentally than my actual age.”'

NumberTheory · 21/10/2021 21:32

The oldest rider on the team apart from Natalie was just 31.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingoal_Casino–Chevalmeire

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 21/10/2021 21:24

Actually ive got a fairly good idea

It just amuses me to act very stupid at times…gets me out of a lot

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 21/10/2021 21:24

I can’t tell if thats yes or not 😳

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/10/2021 20:54

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Are you suggesting that that final line is an unevidenced assertion with no grounding in any reality-based data collection and analysis

Is that what used to be called a lie?

It's difficult to know if NVG is deeply into this immersive fiction which has been encouraged by those close to the team (but not by the rivals whose perspective NVG sets aside) and it all seems completely true. Or this has been said to NVG and it didn't occur to NVG that this might be a comforting part of the immersive fiction.

Failing that, it could be NVG displaying a Frankfurtian approach to matters of truth and caring about it.

www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

Motorina · 21/10/2021 20:04

The podium shot is utterly depressing.

I totally support the right of this individual to live as she chooses, with the name, pronouns, and role in society that she wishes. But seeing her standing on a podium head and shoulders above women who compete without her physiological advantages...

It's wrong. It's not fair.

Syeknom · 21/10/2021 19:40

@andyoldlabour
I find this so depressing. On one hand, as many people on possible put there on bikes loving it is great, but it's just so depressing seeing the podium shots. How long before none of the winners are female? What I would get behind is a separate category in the results and then surely they would feel more of a sense of achievement beating folk on a level playing field. I used to love mountain bike racing, how many good women juniors would give up thinking they weren't good enough?

Have personally raced Lauren Jeska, fell running is great as everyone wears more or less the same thing and starts at the same time. I really object to loosing a place to Lauren, I had my period that day which really just is the icing on the cake if how u fair it is. I really hope all the reports coming out of sporting bodies will make some grounds to protecting women's sport otherwise there's no point!

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 21/10/2021 19:18

Are you suggesting that that final line is an unevidenced assertion with no grounding in any reality-based data collection and analysis

Is that what used to be called a lie?

andyoldlabour · 21/10/2021 19:10

libertyfarmboots

Is it this team?

www.facebook.com/TNWCTeam/

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/10/2021 17:37

@CatsOperatingInGangs

There’s absolutely no way they know the T levels of the other athletes.
Are you suggesting that that final line is an unevidenced assertion with no grounding in any reality-based data collection and analysis? Shock

When newstories are online so it's possible to add in notes in an elegant fashion, I'd rather like a disclaimer that reminds everyone that none of the assertions have been fact-checked, far less validated.

I'd agree with Helleofabore that the fact that one has convinced oneself that one is supremely talented and hard-working rather than advantaged by dint of a sex class and its associated puberty is self-affirmation and not any form of independent validation of one's perspective.

Helleofabore · 21/10/2021 17:35

Indeed alias.

Like the 'grandmother' (50 something) rugby player in Australia playing against young women who hates being reminder that not one woman of that age is playing at that age. Due to menopause and bone density, due to fitness, due to many issues. That person simply cannot accept any reminder. Of course, that male also was a career sportsperson and came into the game with a fitness probably higher than any woman on that team of any age. It is a regional team though and not high profile so it gets little coverage except their avid twitter activism.

howard97A · 21/10/2021 17:32

“I work with juniors …. and they don’t even blink anymore.”

Hey Natalie. Could this be another career move?

Helleofabore · 21/10/2021 17:29

Oh.. I wonder.... have they been pressured to leave so that another male cyclist can take their place. I wonder too if someone's mother will pop up now and confirm this.

You know.... make room for the younger model to come through.

What a shame though that this transitioned male has not the self awareness to look at their comments through the lens of female competitors. They will ALWAYS be Natalie, the trans cyclist. Because that is their reality regardless of what they insist others believe.