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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don't want to add my pronouns at the end of an email, but I can't explain why...

163 replies

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 14:54

Just that really. NHS and we've been encouraged by people who have had 'training' to add our pronouns. I'm a woman and mine are she her. I could do this but I don't want to. I said as much to the inclusivity person. She actually works for me and inclusivity is an add on to her regular job. She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs. Should I just do it? Obvs she can't make me as I am her manager, but I have created unpleasantness. I don't care how I'm referred to and have never been wrongly pronouned!

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 20/10/2021 20:13

As long as you never apply it without someone's express, freely given consent. But it's imposed a LOT.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2021 20:13

[quote Itsanewdah]@EarthSight name definitely only works in a very narrow cultural background, appearance at least online isn’t much better with dodgy internet. Even in person it doesn’t work that well in more creative areas (my line of work). i appreciate every hint if its important for people that i get it rights (literally all complaints i have heard came from cis men and women who didn’t like being misgendered)[/quote]
Do you refer to people as ‘cis’?

Ie when talking to them or others

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 20:11

@MrsTerryPratchett they told me. We talk ;) I like cis, so I use it. They use the descriptor, so its ok with them. I like pronouns, so I use it. I don’t know if you are cis or trans, and I wouldn’t assume. It doesn’t matter and the end, you are who you are.
If you don’t want to use the terms, I respect that, but I also expect you to respect my choices.

MrsTerryPratchett · 20/10/2021 20:06

[quote Itsanewdah]@EarthSight name definitely only works in a very narrow cultural background, appearance at least online isn’t much better with dodgy internet. Even in person it doesn’t work that well in more creative areas (my line of work). i appreciate every hint if its important for people that i get it rights (literally all complaints i have heard came from cis men and women who didn’t like being misgendered)[/quote]
How do you know they're 'cis'? A word I abhor BTW.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2021 20:04

I wouldn’t either

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 20:02

@EarthSight name definitely only works in a very narrow cultural background, appearance at least online isn’t much better with dodgy internet. Even in person it doesn’t work that well in more creative areas (my line of work). i appreciate every hint if its important for people that i get it rights (literally all complaints i have heard came from cis men and women who didn’t like being misgendered)

LonginesPrime · 20/10/2021 19:56

Obvs she can't make me as I am her manager, but I have created unpleasantness.

You didn't create any unpleasantness, OP.

You feel bad because women are conditioned to be kind and comply with societal expectations and because it's natural to empathise with the less fortunate.

This pronoun initiative is pitched as a way for people who don't care about pronouns to signify solidarity and support for people who do, on the basis that people who care about pronouns are less fortunate and therefore more deserving of accommodation to others' detriment.

Inclusivity initiatives such as this often weaponise misogyny to railroad women into feeling guilty for having boundaries. Most women don't even notice it so they get caught up in complying as that's just what you should do to be kind.

Don't feel bad at all for having boundaries, OP - you're just as entitled to boundaries as anyone else, and it's worth reminding yourself every so often that you don't want to do this and you shouldn't be forced to do something you're uncomfortable with against your will.

As others have said - you don't need to explain your decision. Saying you don't feel comfortable with it should be enough. Women shouldn't be expected to require a vast knowledge of a practice before they're entitled to say no to it, so don't feel guilty or wrong for not being able to articulate why your answer is no - the 'no' part is the important bit and they should be respectful of that.

EarthSight · 20/10/2021 19:52

@Itsanewdah

it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either

You're quite right, because most people use visual information or someone's name in order to guess someone's pronouns, not telepathy.

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 19:44

@foxgoosefinch i’ve heard more than one office temper tantrum about people being called he/Mr if they saw themselves as she/Ms, and the other way round. So tell me if its important to you! If not, who cares.

foxgoosefinch · 20/10/2021 19:41

@Itsanewdah

You don’t have to add them of course. However, if you don’t express what your pronouns are, you also can’t complain if somebody uses pronouns you don’t like. So swings and roundabout really, and it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either.
? Many of us don’t care what pronouns people use about us in the first place? What a bizarre “warning”. I don’t give a rat’s arse about pronouns, why would you assume I’d be offended if someone used a pronoun I “didn’t like”?
frazzledasarock · 20/10/2021 19:36

I’ve had people repeatedly misspell my name in emails. Despite the signature on the bottom of my email and my email address having my name on it.

So I doubt very much my pronouns would be correctly used.

Altho I have never had occasion to need to use a persons pronouns in email!

StillWeRise · 20/10/2021 19:36

I like
'my pronouns are sex based, like my oppression'

Tempusfudgeit · 20/10/2021 19:36

Offer to declare your chromosomes instead.

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 19:31

@MrsPsmalls i would avoid pronouns to the best of my abilities if not stated or use they/them if I really have to. Names are a very shaky base for assuming gender, so is appearance - and I’m not comfortable assuming your gender.
For illustration, my (big, multicultural) team at work has a Ryan (she), Michael (she), Danny (she), Sasha (he) and Andrea (he). Most of them i only see online, and gender isn’t immediately obvious for many. So I prefer to stay neutral if i don’t know.
But you obviously don’t have to state your gender. Just makes it easier for others.

frazzledasarock · 20/10/2021 19:23

I didn’t.

I just ignored the email HR sent around.

It amuses me to keep an eye on who puts their pronouns in their emails.

From my observations it’s very few people… women mostly in their twenties and early thirties and the inclusion officer who is also a woman.

Not one single man in the office has seen fit to add their pronouns to their emails.

MrsPsmalls · 20/10/2021 19:21

@Itsanewdah

You don’t have to add them of course. However, if you don’t express what your pronouns are, you also can’t complain if somebody uses pronouns you don’t like. So swings and roundabout really, and it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either.
What the hell other pronouns do you imagine people might use?
OP posts:
SummerSazz · 20/10/2021 19:14

I'd just reply 'no Thankyou'. In fact I have.

Itsanewdah · 20/10/2021 19:11

You don’t have to add them of course. However, if you don’t express what your pronouns are, you also can’t complain if somebody uses pronouns you don’t like. So swings and roundabout really, and it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either.

itssarcasmjoan · 20/10/2021 19:01

No is a complete sentence

mytortoiseisill · 20/10/2021 18:43

"It is not a practice I follow"

is great!

LorenzoVonMatterhorn · 20/10/2021 18:32

She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs.

Tell her she should take hers off as it makes it easier for women who don't want to add theirs.

I like this. But I think id just go to my now favourite phrase, from Sarah Robles, of ‘no thank you.’

EarthSight · 20/10/2021 18:22

@Mochudubh

I don't think anyone should be made to label themselves.
@Mochudubh That's a very good response.
EarthSight · 20/10/2021 18:21

An enormous amount of this has to do with relying on women's desire to be accommodating and fit in. They think you will bow to the pressure and other women are sadly quite happy police their sisters into line.

Do not, even if she seems happy, lovely and friendly, start to go into conversation about this with her. If she's really into all this, she won't see it as a respectful debate or conversation, she'll see it as an opportunity to 'educate' you and if you refuse that education, there's a good chance you'll be labelled in an unflattering way which might cause problems down the line.

Make sure you don't fill silences. It all depends on who you're speaking to, but if it's someone to watch out for, the will make sure that anything you do say will be used against you.

'No' is what they need to hear and accept. Not 'No', followed by you falling over yourself to explain. Just 'no' or 'no thank you'.

However, there might be situations where it's really not that simple, and I've private messaged you my own responses to this kind of thing, which I don't want to publish on here.

Tidyspy · 20/10/2021 17:41

*bog standard FFS

Tidyspy · 20/10/2021 17:41

The reason I decided not to give reasons or get into a discussion was because I know that the response would be to just disagree with e.g. reservations due to women being discriminated against at work etc and say “this is about being an ally”. No reasons such as any given above would be accepted. If (when) it comes up again and I’m pressed to do it, I will say I prefer not to add such personal info to emails, if I’m asked face to face (by someone inexplicably confused as to how to refer to a woman shaped person with a big standard female name in the 3rd person) of course I’ll answer but I’m not volunteering it to all and sundry.

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