I don't want to add my pronouns at the end of an email, but I can't explain why...

Luckily, the pronoun thing has not reached my worplace yet. I work in medical research so I am hoping that logic prevails, but who knows...

So far I have only been asked my pronouns at a research interview about abortion (of all subjects!). I did say that I am a woman because I am one, not because I identify as one. The interviewer who was obviously female and had hers in her zoom name, just smiled. Possibly condescendingly.

Tell her she should take hers off as it makes it easier for women who don't want to add theirs.

This!

I'm actually finding it very difficult to believe that someone entirely happy with cis, and chatting about pronouns, and happy gender discussions is going to get pissed off because they were missexed accidentally. Sorry but that sounds bollocks.

Well, Itsanewdah describes it as a multicultural environment, so I assume the people who are asserting that their gender identity is 'cis' and are getting upset about being misgendered are from cultures with rigid gender stereotypes where it would be deeply insulting for a man to be mistaken for a woman because women's lower social status is so ingrained.

There are lots of cultures where viewing someone as trans is far more palatable than accepting that it's ok if they don't conform to gender stereotypes or are homosexual, so it kind of makes sense in that context.

Hopefully @Itsanewdah asks every single person every single time before referring to them as cis - whether they're present or not?

'Cause otherwise that would be literal something, surely.

[quote Itsanewdah]@MrsTerryPratchett they told me. We talk ;) I like cis, so I use it. They use the descriptor, so its ok with them. I like pronouns, so I use it. I don’t know if you are cis or trans, and I wouldn’t assume. It doesn’t matter and the end, you are who you are.
If you don’t want to use the terms, I respect that, but I also expect you to respect my choices.[/quote]
I hate the term CIS, it implies biological women are a subset of women rather than just being women. It's used to push us down and widen our group to include some biological men.

I'm not CIS and I'm not trans.

I don't believe in enforcing stereotypes and old fashions pink for girls stuff.

I'm a woman because my body is female. I don't wear makeup and I ride a motorbike. I am not a man because I make some choices that others would ascribe to masculine traits.

I am offended when someone uses the term CIS. It isn't a neutral term, it implies that I kowtow to old fashioned sexist beliefs and through internal misogyny accept this idea of gender that means I'm supposed to be sweet and kind and nice.

I will not be wrapped in pink and labelled as a subtype of my own sex.

OP, I really think this policy hasn’t been thought through, and I find this worrying given that you work in the NHS.

Presumably you come across people from a variety of different backgrounds with diverse beliefs every day.

I would guess that in other instances you are encouraged to accommodate beliefs when possible, particularly where this enables better care, but that there is no expectation that a particular belief will be endorsed.

Your colleague seems to be suggesting a policy that only endorses the beliefs of one group, (people who have specific beliefs about gender identity) which surely leads to enforced conformity and exclusion?

Haven't RTFY (about to go to work) but two points.

Firstly, @MrsPsmalls, you didn't cause the unpleasantness. You were put on the spot by someone. They can't expect everyone to roll over and obey.

Secondly, I dropped one of the DC at uni a few weeks back. I couldn't help but notice that about two thirds of the young women welcoming the freshers had 'she/her' badges (as though it wasn't completely obvious) and NONE of the young men I saw did, and nor did the male staff member on duty. In practice, this has become another way of obliging women (as in XX people) to beeee kiiind and think of others, without the XY people feeling any need to bother.

Fucks me off massively. What are we doing to our young people?

I’m not english, how am I supposed to know that Ciaran is “he” or “willow” is usually “she”.

If it’s really unclear and sex is relevant you just ask.

This isn’t a new issue.

She said I should as it makes it easier for trans people who want to add theirs.

Why does she think their preferred pronouns are difficult to discern?

I'd be tempted to ask her - tempted, but wouldn't unless she really pushed me - if she thinks that sexuality should also be added on email signatures so homo- or bisexual people didn't feel left out by people assuming they're straight. After all, apparently T is just another part of LGB.

And if not, why not?

Could it be that adding labels (other than job title) to signatures increases the chance of discrimination?

[quote EarthSight]@Itsanewdah

it’s absolutely your choice, but others around you aren’t mind readers either

You're quite right, because most people use visual information or someone's name in order to guess someone's pronouns, not telepathy.[/quote]
This made me laugh out loud.

I have chosen not to list my pronouns as I feel that by doing so I become less approachable for gender-critical staff. Inclusion is very important for me, so I respect the choices others make about pronoun declaration, and I take care to treat trans colleagues respectfully.

Nothing I add to my email signature will change how anyone else identifies, nor should it. What's more, if someone can't figure out from my name and image that I'm female, I view that as their problem. I legit don't care if I get referred to as the wrong pronoun. People who think including their pronouns will somehow make their lives easier are free to do so, but I'm not a therapist and making them feel better about that choice isn't in my job description.

I don’t see why women’s feelings can’t be considered

[quote Itsanewdah]@LonginesPrime i repeatedly stated that I checked. We actually talk to each other. They use that term, I can use it. Talk to each other about pronouns, descriptors etc, and life will be much easier with a lot less offense.[/quote]
I'm actually finding it very difficult to believe that someone entirely happy with cis, and chatting about pronouns, and happy gender discussions is going to get pissed off because they were missexed accidentally. Sorry but that sounds bollocks.

Why should you be forced to “make life easier for trans people “?? What a strange reason.

The use of cis makes me feel excluded - why does my exclusion count for less??

[quote Itsanewdah]@foxgoosefinch i’ve heard more than one office temper tantrum about people being called he/Mr if they saw themselves as she/Ms, and the other way round. So tell me if its important to you! If not, who cares.[/quote]
Really?!? I’ve had a range of jobs in all sorts of workplaces for the last 25 years and never once heard of anyone throwing such a temper tantrum as you describe. What kind of workplace are you in?

Not that sex actually matters in the workplace.

Well, I mean workplaces are usually populated by adults, many of whom are of childbearing age or menopausal, etc, so I think it matters a little bit.

@LonginesPrime i repeatedly stated that I checked. We actually talk to each other. They use that term, I can use it. Talk to each other about pronouns, descriptors etc, and life will be much easier with a lot less offense.

literally all complaints i have heard came from cis men and women who didn’t like being misgendered

I wouldn't like to be misgendered as 'cis' either, so I can see their point.

I'd complain too if someone tried to assume my gender and label me as 'cis' without checking with me first - it's so disrespectful to think they know how I feel inside my head from the way I look and behave.

Nobody asks me to wear a cross at work to make it easier for Christians . Adding my pronouns implies a belief system I don’t have.

@EarthSight i would never use a term somebody doesn’t use for themselves.
And I work in a multicultural organisation - names are pretty useless in identifying gender, hence the frequent, only half joking “ ahh, its Mr xyz / Ms abc again”. Most of us use pronouns now, makes things easier. Nobody has to, but please don’t moan if I get it wrong, especially with more unusual names. I’m not english, how am I supposed to know that Ciaran is “he” or “willow” is usually “she”.
And I have no idea about my coworkers sex. I don’t ask for dna or inspect genitals. Not that sex actually matters in the workplace.

[quote Itsanewdah]@EarthSight name definitely only works in a very narrow cultural background, appearance at least online isn’t much better with dodgy internet. Even in person it doesn’t work that well in more creative areas (my line of work). i appreciate every hint if its important for people that i get it rights (literally all complaints i have heard came from cis men and women who didn’t like being misgendered)[/quote]
@Itsanewdah

'All complaints'

That makes it sound like people in your line of work are regularly being deliberately 'misgendered' in order to upset them, in a sort of pathetic, childish, 'hehe, aren't we so clever' attempt to get them to capitulate to what you think is right.

Those people who don't like being misgendered are probably opposed to be inaccurately sexed, especially in order to prove a point or to make them believe in things they don't.