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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

OP posts:
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PigeonLittle · 17/11/2021 22:52

@2Rebecca

The most unpleasant TRAs I know aren't trans. They are usually male gay or sometimes straight or bi "allies" who see trans rights as a religion they can be martyrs for and portray themselves as virtuous saints against the evil heretics. Harrop fits this profile as does Owen Jones, Kirsty Blackman and people I know without such a high public profile. Few trans people do the self glorification witch hunting thing to the same extent. Why are these people so invested in this?
Oh I know why
BoreOfWhabylon · 17/11/2021 22:49

Sorry, sorry - Prince Andrew!

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/11/2021 22:48

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Asked what he would like to say to the gender critics and transphobes who may read this, Harrop paused for a moment, before calmly and confidently responding, "you will not win".

It's all a little bit David Brent isn't it? Grin

A David Brent / Prince Edward mashup.

With cake instead of pizza.

2Rebecca · 17/11/2021 22:42

The most unpleasant TRAs I know aren't trans. They are usually male gay or sometimes straight or bi "allies" who see trans rights as a religion they can be martyrs for and portray themselves as virtuous saints against the evil heretics. Harrop fits this profile as does Owen Jones, Kirsty Blackman and people I know without such a high public profile. Few trans people do the self glorification witch hunting thing to the same extent. Why are these people so invested in this?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 17/11/2021 22:25

I find it unbelievable that AH didn't understand the SM policy

I don’t think anyone believes he didn’t understand it. The question is more whether he could plausibly pretend that he didn’t (pre-warnings), and use this as mitigation.

Mollyollydolly · 17/11/2021 22:21

Yes, they probably only get a response once in a blue moon and today they've probably had hundreds. Lots of people complained about Harrop.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/11/2021 22:20

(Don't forget the two written warnings which seem to have been largely ignored.) I would not want someone like that back without reassurance and without confidence that they intended to change their behaviour. The article suggest that a slap on the wrist might simply give confidence that earlier behaviours were acceptable.

This is his advice to a fellow colleague after one or both of those warnings.

Harrop MPTS Hearing
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 17/11/2021 22:12

"you won't win"

Is that a retort to Posie's "I never lose"?

Needmoresleep · 17/11/2021 22:09

As a layperson with no knowledge of the procedures, my instinct with this latest news, would be to want a psychiatrist report with relevant fitness to practice recommendations.

My concern would be that the hostility conveyed in the tweets, whether within or without policy, plus the arrogance and lack of contrition shown in the interview, with or without any breach of confidentiality suggests that there could be something fundamentally awry.

I would then be thinking about what ifs. What if Posie Parker or a strong woman of the sort that seems to arouse this hostility were to become his patient. What if there were future issues around diagnosis at the gender clinic he works at, with a young de-transitioner saying that the doctor responsible for the original treatment had been very focussed on transition and perhaps had not given sufficient weight to other options.

Giving an interview at this point is bonkers. It raises red flags. If I were a naturally cautious member of a panel, I would be very worried about the seeming lack of contrition and of common sense about how to conduct yourself when facing serious, career threatening, charges. (Don't forget the two written warnings which seem to have been largely ignored.) I would not want someone like that back without reassurance and without confidence that they intended to change their behaviour. The article suggest that a slap on the wrist might simply give confidence that earlier behaviours were acceptable.

BreadInCaptivity · 17/11/2021 22:08

I find it unbelievable that AH didn't understand the SM policy.

I'm in a field where what I post online absolutely reflects on my professional practice and the guidelines/standards on SM are very explicit and we are absolutely expected to be knowledgeable about them.

Even on a format where I don't state my profession and that I'm posting in a personal capacity doesn't/wouldn't cut any ice if I post outside those professional standards of conduct.

Whilst it can be frustrating at times I absolutely understand why that is what is required of me.

I can't be in a situation where it might appear that my personal GC beliefs/opinions could compromise the trust in the services my profession provides - even if I would never allow this to be the case (and to be very clear I would not).

AH still can't seem to fathom, how his opinions might adversely impact the willingness/trust in people served by his practice who feel differently and the interview in Vice confirms this.

Motorina · 17/11/2021 21:59

@Terfydactyl

Does it help if I say it's normal for witness statements to be included in full (less agreed redactions) in the evidence bundle, and for them to form part of the evidence

I think my query is in the material used for a tribunal limited to just those who will be witnesses. Or will the likes of my and others original complaint also be in the bundle. I realise no one may know and I have a message in and waiting on a response. But I would feel better if my complaint was never seen by the panel or AH or anyone associated with.

Ahhhh, I think I understand what you're asking.

I have seen the following types of witness statements are included in the evidence bundle.

  1. Witness statements from people who give evidence on oath. So I would expect there to be witness statements from Harrop, and from anyone else Harrop calls in his defence.
  1. Witness statements from people who have information relevant to the charges but where it's agreed there's no need for them to give evidence. In this case, somewhat astonishingly, that includes all the GMC witnesses. I would expect there to be a statement from each of them in the bundle. More normally, it's people who's evidence is uncontroversial. For example, if there is a charge of "failure to respond to letters from the GMC" there may be a witness statement from some junior legal assistant in the GMC who's statement is "I checked the file. We sent letters one to six on these dates. Here are copies of the letters."
  1. Witness statements from people who have relevant information but who are unavailable to give evidence, for example because they are very seriously unwell or have died. There may be argument from the other side about whether these should be shown to the panel, because the lawyers have no way of challenging or testing them through cross examination. There may also be argument about how seriously the panel should take them, given the person who's statement it is is not there to answer questions.

Sometimes the initial complaint is in the bundle, and sometimes it isn't. There doesn't seem to be much logic to whether it's there or not.

I would not expect to see the complaints made about concerns unrelated to the allegations to be in the bundle. I think the defence would argue that that was unfair. That including them could prejudice the panel against him by including criticisms which aren't relevent to the charges.

However... I know that there's an 'unused evidence' bundle which the defence get given by the GMC. That's in case there's any material which came about in the GMC investigation which they don't want to use to pursue their case, but which the defence might choose to use. Everything - used or not - gets sent to the defence in case it's of relevance to them. I simply don't know whether that might include other complaints made. The panel will never get to see this material, because it's not relevant to the charges.

Sorry, I know that's half an answer at best.

Rightsraptor · 17/11/2021 21:55

"Terf - you might be better contacting MTPS.

Contact details here:

www.mpts-uk.org/contact-us"

I had a communication from MTPS and there were pronouns in the signature. Not sure I'd trust them either with my complaint.

Terfydactyl · 17/11/2021 21:41

@WitchButNotTheFunKind

Interesting the MPTS website has a captcha if you try to access it now (and the captcha isn’t working properly). I wonder if they are being targeted by hackers
There was no captcha earlier around half 3, but by the time I got home and tried again with the message a pp kindly gave, there was a working captcha. I suspect a lot of women are as worried as me that our details ( and I had to give a lot of info to make the complaint) have been given to a 'lawyer' and a "news" site.
ItsLittoralViolins · 17/11/2021 21:34

As @Motorina and @MissLucyEyelesbarrow have said, the MPTS tribunals are on a similar footing to civil courts.

They can even award costs against defendants:

Important changes
Two other changes to the procedures introduced by the 2015 amendments are of substantial importance. First, case management has been given a statutory presence which it had not previously enjoyed, and it is hoped that robust proactive case management will reduce further the length of hearings. Case management decisions will be binding on the parties and indeed, barring changes in the circumstances, binding on the tribunals as well. There is a new power in certain circumstances to make a costs award against a party, either the doctor or the GMC, who has behaved unreasonably in the conduct of the proceedings and, in particular, against a party who has failed to comply with case management directions or failed to comply with the fitness to practise rules.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/pearl-arms-length-adjudication.pdf

WitchButNotTheFunKind · 17/11/2021 21:28

Interesting the MPTS website has a captcha if you try to access it now (and the captcha isn’t working properly). I wonder if they are being targeted by hackers

Terfydactyl · 17/11/2021 21:28

Does it help if I say it's normal for witness statements to be included in full (less agreed redactions) in the evidence bundle, and for them
to form part of the evidence

I think my query is in the material used for a tribunal limited to just those who will be witnesses. Or will the likes of my and others original complaint also be in the bundle. I realise no one may know and I have a message in and waiting on a response. But I would feel better if my complaint was never seen by the panel or AH or anyone associated with.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 17/11/2021 21:23

I feel the adult babies are the only thing this hearing is missing. Bring ‘em on!

AnyFucker · 17/11/2021 21:20

Agog

donquixotedelamancha · 17/11/2021 21:10

Right I've just had a look at the Good law project's Twitter page - they want someone to run Foxys Twitter page for a day

Wonder is he will do a Neville Southall and hand it over to the adult babies.

Joylon already has controls the Twitter account, I'm struggling to see anyone taking over who doesn't improve the quality of output.

PronounssheRa · 17/11/2021 21:07

@Redshoeblueshoe

Right I've just had a look at the Good law project's Twitter page - they want someone to run Foxys Twitter page for a day ! Grin
Wonder is he will do a Neville Southall and hand it over to the adult babies. That was a bizarre moment.
JustcameoutGC · 17/11/2021 21:04

Fuck me. This has had more twists, turns and jaw drops than a series of Succession.

I mean, wtf is he at? One thing i am 100% sure of, he is not even 1% as smart as he thinks he is. He has clearly pressed the self destruct button, but will have a plan for life outside the medical register. I dont think he quite gets how no one would trust him to make them a cheese toastie, never mind prescribe life altering drugs.

LizzieSiddal · 17/11/2021 21:01

This reply has been deleted

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Redshoeblueshoe · 17/11/2021 21:00

Right I've just had a look at the Good law project's Twitter page - they want someone to run Foxys Twitter page for a day !
Grin

FannyCann · 17/11/2021 20:51

He’s using the photos from this shoot for his Insta & FB avatar. It’s shameless.

Was his Instagram public earlier today? It's private now.

Not related to the tribunal obv but he used to have (or may still have) a picture of the grave of JonBenét Ramsey on his Instagram, documenting a trip to the USA. As it happens I met an older lady from Boulder and fell into conversation about how long she had lived in the U.K. etc. Turned out she was a neighbour of the Ramsey family. She said what was so awful in the aftermath of the murder was all the ghouls and murder tourists, creeping around, sneaking into gardens, taking photos and asking questions. I think she'd be petty appalled to find her U.K. GP (thanks to the wonderful nhs) was one of those ghouls.

myrtleWilson · 17/11/2021 20:48

thanks @Motorina - I'm a bit gobsmacked that you're gobsmacked - shows we're not in Kansas anymore I guess!