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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

OP posts:
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SpindelWhorl · 22/10/2021 05:20

As the Law Gazette notes, "... the title 'lawyer' is not legally protected. Anyone can call themselves a lawyer or offer legal services as a lawyer, irrespective of whether they have any legal training or qualifications."

Anyone can, and somebody does ...

Maskless · 22/10/2021 00:10

@nauticant

I doubt that Hayden is responsible for the defence and isn't actually stating this.
As Hayden is neither a solicitor nor a barrister this would not be allowed, in any case.
TatoAndBeans · 21/10/2021 23:01

Does anyone remember the tweet with a bogus prescription for Glinner? I can’t remember all the ins-and-outs but I’m sure there was a clear breach of data protection and abuse of work computer, as it was a screenshot of his surgery’s actual desktop???

GenderAtheist · 21/10/2021 21:10

Another vote of thanks to @Motorina.

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/10/2021 18:05

Thanks again Motorina

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 21/10/2021 17:54

[quote Motorina]**@snoopyfloops, @BoreOfWhabylon my pleasure! I find this stuff fascinating and am happy to bore about it Smile[/quote]
Not boring at all! You've explained it in a clear and engaging way. Thank you.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 21/10/2021 17:47

Agree, thanks, Motorina, that is really helpful.

My legal knowledge comes entirely from Cagney and Lacey.

Motorina · 21/10/2021 17:47

I don't know, sorry - I've not been involved in the case management/case preparation side of things. I know new complaints can be added in - it's called a joinder application.

I would guess it's more likely if the allegations are basically more of the same rather than totally different concerns.

I'd guess it's less likely if the new allegations come in really close to the hearing. The defence is entitled to a reasonable time to consider the allegations and prepare their defence.

I suspect that once the charges have been drafted and notice of hearing (a formal letter saying that it's going ahead on these dates in this place) has been sent, new charges can only be added with the consent of the tribunal panel. For anything like that, both sides would be able to give their opinion on whether they think it would happen or not. If the defence were to say, "Yeah, it totally makes sense to deal with all this at the same time" then I suspect it would happen; if they said, "It's really unfair because we haven't had time to get our witnesses in order" then it wouldn't. But it would be a decision for the panel depending on the circumstances of the case.

Sorry, I know that's only half an answer!

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/10/2021 17:34

@Motorina in a case that was covering behaviour between specified dates, what would happen if more complaints had come in outside of those dates? Would they be added in or would a further hearing be ordered?

Motorina · 21/10/2021 17:27

@snoopyfloops, @BoreOfWhabylon my pleasure! I find this stuff fascinating and am happy to bore about it Smile

Motorina · 21/10/2021 17:26

The defence might raise some of it, if it thinks the context will make the panel consider the tweets more likely.

should read 'tweets more reasonable'.

snoopyfloops · 21/10/2021 17:24

Thanks @Motorina so interesting. So good of you to share your expertise.

Motorina · 21/10/2021 17:24

The court won't make the decision about timings. It'll be decided effectively as an administrative exercise.

As an example (made up! I know nothing!) the GMC - who are basically the prosecution - will say, "We have four witnesses. Here are their statements. The first witness will take this long, the second that long..."

The defence will say, "We've read their statments. We need half a day to question the first witness, and an hour for the second..." and so on. And then they'll say, "We need this long for our witnesses."

Plus they will estimate how long they need for their opening speeches, and their closing speeches.

Then an administrator will say, "Usually in cases of this complexity it takes two days for the panel to make their decision and write it up."

Then all that will be added up, with a fudge factor, and that'll be how long it'll be listed for. The tribunal panel will have no say in it.

In terms of the broader political context, I wouldn't expect the GMC to raise any of that, because it's not relevant to the charges that the panel are being asked to consider.

The defence might raise some of it, if it thinks the context will make the panel consider the tweets more likely.

But, no, I wouldn't expect anything about experimental treatments, or other cases to feature. The charges are actually quite limited ('You posted these things, it was nasty, some of it was threatening') and I'd expect both sides to focus quite closely on that. If anyone is expecting this to impact on the wider issue of care pathways for people who identify as trans then they're going to be disappointed.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 21/10/2021 17:15

Motorina supposing there was a separate case still ongoing which had been found to be complex and raised some startling issues. And that medic who held similar beliefs to this medic. And that this medic appears to have had a close relationship with that medic and there had been musings online that this medic was going to work with that medic.

Meanwhile there is a fast changing and charged background with a specialist clinic which had been found by the High Court to be lacking in it's basic safeguarding and standards of recording and consent; a political hot potato; in a field which had been described as "experimental"; with the Cass review working separately but in the same area - is it possible the court might think that is all relevant and require provision of more time just incase?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 21/10/2021 17:07

My hope is that Marion Millar's case gets kicked out ASAP, but if it does have to go to court I will be glad of the chance to see Joanna Cherry at work, because I think that will be a real spectacle.

I would choose the same words to express my interest in this defence team despite my expectations being rather different.

Motorina · 21/10/2021 17:07

@snoopyfloops

Does anyone know why it's such a long hearing? 2 weeks?
In essence, because that's what the parties will have agreed is necessary. There will have been various planning meetings in the past few months, where each side will have said what witnesses they're planning on calling and how long they think it will be, which will be used to decide how much time to book.

It's actually 3 weeks, which I agree sounds a long time for what seems quite a simple case. I would have guestimated 2 weeks, but clearly I have no idea what evidence there is or how many witnesses.

Rhannion · 21/10/2021 16:01

[quote Terfasaurus]It’s getting better and better. Look who is conducting the defence.

twitter.com/flyinglawyer73/status/1450781125756997641?s=21[/quote]
Two ch::ks of t:e s::e a::e ! 😂

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/10/2021 15:58

Well, he did actually publish her name on twitter. I think thatnwas the tweet where the Welsh Consultant Anaesthetist rebuked him.

I wonder how many medics shared concerns about him with the GMC? I suspect it might have been quite a few.

RedDogsBeg · 21/10/2021 15:53

@Datun

A male doctor who told a woman that he didn't want her to feel safe anywhere, threatened to publish her name, address, place of work and details culled from MN on Twitter for all to see.

There is an epidemic of male violence against women, there was at the time he posted this threat and a male doctor does this.

This. It's no good the police and authorities handwringing in the media over the deaths of women, if behaviour like this goes unaddressed.

The rank misogyny of a doctor, no less, thinking that he can hound, dox and threaten a woman because she disagrees with him, needs a public and significant challenge.

This is what the Police should have and should take action on, not tweets about fucking limericks or ribbons.
Datun · 21/10/2021 15:42

A male doctor who told a woman that he didn't want her to feel safe anywhere, threatened to publish her name, address, place of work and details culled from MN on Twitter for all to see.

There is an epidemic of male violence against women, there was at the time he posted this threat and a male doctor does this.

This. It's no good the police and authorities handwringing in the media over the deaths of women, if behaviour like this goes unaddressed.

The rank misogyny of a doctor, no less, thinking that he can hound, dox and threaten a woman because she disagrees with him, needs a public and significant challenge.

snoopyfloops · 21/10/2021 15:32

Does anyone know why it's such a long hearing? 2 weeks?

RedDogsBeg · 21/10/2021 15:30

The reason Dr Harrop has been so frequently discussed on here is because he is a doctor. We don’t have threads and threads on other vicious trolls like Sprout & co because they are not licensed and enabled by the state to have personal access vulnerable women (and children and men)

The important thing is not the schadenfreude, fun as it is, but protecting the public. It’s not about punishing or cancelling a man for his views but making sure he’s not in a position to hurt anyone.

A male doctor who told a woman that he didn't want her to feel safe anywhere, threatened to publish her name, address, place of work and details culled from MN on Twitter for all to see.

There is an epidemic of male violence against women, there was at the time he posted this threat and a male doctor does this. Equally he had never considered whether the women in question needed to remain anonymous for other reasons such as hiding from an abusive ex partner.

Yes, women who don't share his views absolutely need protecting from him.

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/10/2021 15:21

Thanks for all the invaluable information and advice @Motorina Flowers

Rhannion · 21/10/2021 14:54

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