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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

OP posts:
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Needmoresleep · 18/11/2021 09:43

Motorina and Fannycam, there are all sorts of things happening, often unintended results from well meaning equality initiatives.

First selection is increasingly by UCAT score. If you want to get into medical school you are probably better off sitting in your bedroom practicing timed tests (One of DDs peers did this daily for six months and got 98% and four offers) than, say, volunteering with the St John's ambulance.

Second, students have a lot of power. Some have become serial complainants, and will launch formal complaints to counter any attempt at picking them up. No Clinical Training Fellow or consultant wants the bother of a complaint so they will stay well clear even if behaviour, often attendance, falls short of what should be required. More unusual, inappropriate behaviour, presumably is even harder to pick up and evidence, though in a larger year group there are bound to be one or two students who are odd and who may well have problems gaining patient confidence. A deep ingrained misogyny for example, and that can happen, for example with students from more patriarchal cultures.

Third, so much teaching now happens on placement that students are hard to track. A student may be late consistently through the year, but different staff members are hearing reasonable sounding excuses for the first time so don't escalate.

Fourth, I agree that with the emphasis on grades, UCAT and the respectability of the profession, many students really don't know that medicine involves a lot of bodily fluids and a very diverse patient population. Hence some very high drop out rates from the more academic universities to banking, law etc.

I hope that the ultimate objective of this hearing is to determine whether AH is able to generate patient trust and is therefore competent to be in his profession. I, personally, would not sign on his list because of behavioural and data concerns.

Effzeh · 18/11/2021 09:41

@Personwithrage

There's an interesting article (in relation to medicine) about poor performance as a student and how it is linked to later concerns over practice somewhere.

It's pretty clear as I remember and yet many universities do struggle to weed out those that they know will likely falter. Is it because it's a university course first and foremost and therefore all the uni mitigations and accomodations and allowances apply equally to a course in medicine as they do to English lit?

It's become harder in all fields to fail students - it's a financially-driven, bums-on-seats calculation for university management, made worse by the massive increase in the ligitious, I-know-my-rights, students (and their parents) as consumers mindset.
BettyFilous · 18/11/2021 09:37

Agree. The saddest thing at medical school was all the doctors' kids who had followed in their parents' footsteps, only to find that they didn't actually enjoy medicine. I have huge respect for the few who had the guts to walk away.

One of my friends has doctor parents, had a med school place and the required grades for her offer but had the strength to pull out at the 11th hour and get a place in Clearing for a completely different course. She says she’s never regretted her decision.

Personwithrage · 18/11/2021 09:30

There's an interesting article (in relation to medicine) about poor performance as a student and how it is linked to later concerns over practice somewhere.

It's pretty clear as I remember and yet many universities do struggle to weed out those that they know will likely falter. Is it because it's a university course first and foremost and therefore all the uni mitigations and accomodations and allowances apply equally to a course in medicine as they do to English lit?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 18/11/2021 09:30

@Motorina

There's also the issue that, once in the professions, you're a high earner in a prestigious position, but one with a very limited skill set. So, if you realise a few years in it's not for you, it's really really hard to get out. There's nothing you can shift sideways in with your skill set which pays even half as much and, if by that stage, you've got a mortgage and 2.4 children you're effectively stuck.

The kindest thing, actually, is to weed out those for whom it isn't right at the earliest possible stage, so they can do something which is right for them. Healthcare - no matter which professional title - is actually a really weird way to learn a living. You're getting up close and personal with people's smelly bits, both literally and in terms of their lives and struggles. If you have a vocation for it it is the best thing ever. If you don't? It must be bloody awful.

Agree. The saddest thing at medical school was all the doctors' kids who had followed in their parents' footsteps, only to find that they didn't actually enjoy medicine. I have huge respect for the few who had the guts to walk away.

I think the US system, where most people do medicine as a post-graduate course, is better. You do some pre-med courses as an undergraduate, which give you a chance to assess whether medicine is for you and, if it isn't, you haven't lost anything - you still graduate with an undergraduate degree, and can then go on to a career in something else.

It's not just being up close and personal with smelly bits of life that's difficult - I think a lot of doctors and nurses are quite traumatised by seeing death and suffering at a young age with inadequate psychological support. I reckon that I have seen at least 2000 people die, often in traumatic circumstances (because I work in urgent care) and I have to carry on straightaway afterwards. That takes a toll now; it was even harder when I was 23.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 18/11/2021 09:28

That was in response to the request to stop posting about the individual.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 18/11/2021 09:27

Agreed. I once describe the litigious individual as "vile" and MN deleted the post.

Motorina · 18/11/2021 09:27

I don't know if anyone's in touch with this twitter user twitter.com/selfcommit2othe

She's just posted an apology for how she's doing. I'm not on twitter, so can't reply directly. If anyone can please can you reassure her she's doing amazingly well to capture so much of the cross examination. I've done it, and it's actually incredibly hard to both listen and take comprehensive notes at the same time. Lawyers get formal training in how to do it. Please reassure her that there's nothing to apologise for - she's doing a fabulous job.

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/11/2021 09:14

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Please stop answering questions about the golfer! While what she has already done is proven fact, drawing inferences about what she meant in any exchanges with AH is potentially defamatory.

Saying MissLucy ate all the cakes in the staff room is not defamatory if I have already been found guilty of it. Saying that MissLucy tweeting a photo of cakes, with a caption saying Yum and a wink emoji, means that I intend to do it again, could be defamatory.

The golfer is incredibly litigious, and may come after you personally (MN can potentially be forced to hand over your contact details) as well as MN.

It's all there on Twitter, for anyone who wants to know.

This.
PronounssheRa · 18/11/2021 09:13

Thanks Motorina

I would anticipate at some point in all that there will be legal wranglings about what to do about the VICE article, but I am not even begin to guess how that will play out

That's was something of a curve ball wasn't it. I wonder if anything like it has happened before mid tribunal.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 18/11/2021 09:13

Please stop answering questions about the golfer! While what she has already done is proven fact, drawing inferences about what she meant in any exchanges with AH is potentially defamatory.

Saying MissLucy ate all the cakes in the staff room is not defamatory if I have already been found guilty of it. Saying that MissLucy tweeting a photo of cakes, with a caption saying Yum and a wink emoji, means that I intend to do it again, could be defamatory.

The golfer is incredibly litigious, and may come after you personally (MN can potentially be forced to hand over your contact details) as well as MN.

It's all there on Twitter, for anyone who wants to know.

Motorina · 18/11/2021 09:11

There's also the issue that, once in the professions, you're a high earner in a prestigious position, but one with a very limited skill set. So, if you realise a few years in it's not for you, it's really really hard to get out. There's nothing you can shift sideways in with your skill set which pays even half as much and, if by that stage, you've got a mortgage and 2.4 children you're effectively stuck.

The kindest thing, actually, is to weed out those for whom it isn't right at the earliest possible stage, so they can do something which is right for them. Healthcare - no matter which professional title - is actually a really weird way to learn a living. You're getting up close and personal with people's smelly bits, both literally and in terms of their lives and struggles. If you have a vocation for it it is the best thing ever. If you don't? It must be bloody awful.

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/11/2021 09:05

I should have said "Adrian wants to be seen as important"

Lovelyricepudding · 18/11/2021 09:04

I have an aquaintance who teaches dentistry. She says the same about how impossible it is to fail students. Another issue she finds is dentistry, like medicine, is an aspirational subject - a subject families think has prestige and kudos (as well as financially advantageous). So students who are not incline towards caring, or not that interested in it, are pushed into it by families. This family pressure to do these subjects can be even more intense for overseas students as their families are sinking huge amounts of money into their courses and want to see the return (which could also be their source of support in retirement). So it can also be impossible for the students themselves to drop out.

colouringindoors · 18/11/2021 09:00

@Redshoeblueshoe There are Wink

Motorina · 18/11/2021 08:59

Catching up on yesterday's tweets am I right in reading that Harrop has admitted a number of the allegations and the next step is for the tribunal to look at the ones that are to be determined?

Ish.

Harrop has to finish his evidence.

If there are any more defence witnesses, they will give evidence.

Both barristers will give closing submissions - basically an executive summary of the evidence they think is important and they think the panel should pay attention to.

In the jurisdictions I'm familiar with, the legal advisor would then summarise the relevant law. But I don't think the MPTS has a legal advisor - I think they have a legally qualified chair instead - and I don't know how that works there.

I would anticipate at some point in all that there will be legal wranglings about what to do about the VICE article, but I am not even begin to guess how that will play out.

Then the panel will retire to make their decision. They will need to produce it in writing which, in my jurisdiction, would take a couple of days. I don't know if having a legally qualified chair would speed that up or not.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/11/2021 08:59

The first time I came across Harrop was in the local TV news (see below) where I lived at that time.

It's interesting watching him there that he seems quite different to recent years. He's calmer and comes across as reasonable if robotic.

In the videos of the last few years he's clearly blathering pre-prepared hyperbole in a wide-eyed and breathless way, which makes him look silly and patronising. When he debated Posie he was positively shrieking.

Datun · 18/11/2021 08:57

@PronounssheRa

Adrian wants to be important

I agree with this, he has for a long time tried to establish a media career, he has jumped from cause to cause and political party to political party in an attempt to gain traction somewhere.

Catching up on yesterday's tweets am I right in reading that Harrop has admitted a number of the allegations and the next step is for the tribunal to look at the ones that are to be determined?

I hadn't realised that. Transgenderism being just the latest cause. He's so invested, one would think it was incredibly personal to him and always had been.

Still, it's long been noted that the ideology is a misogyny magnet.

PronounssheRa · 18/11/2021 08:54

@Redshoeblueshoe

Ben Hunte's Twitter feed is a thing of beauty. I'm sure there are several mumsnetters on there Grin
His article has certainly brought attention to Harrops behaviour, but not in the way Harrop or Hunte wanted.

How could they be so naive/arrogant as to think this would be a good move.

FannyCann · 18/11/2021 08:52

Re my previous post - apologies for derail and also I didn't in anyway mean to demean or belittle migraine sufferers - I know how crippling they can be and suffered have my huge sympathy.
It was only in that particular case where there were questions shall we say.

Redshoeblueshoe · 18/11/2021 08:50

Ben Hunte's Twitter feed is a thing of beauty. I'm sure there are several mumsnetters on there Grin

MonsignorMirth · 18/11/2021 08:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Northernlurker · 18/11/2021 08:42

@BreadInCaptivity you are correct to raise that. It was a very difficult time.

Needmoresleep · 18/11/2021 08:40

Off topic, but yes @FannyCann. It may be worse now. DD is fourth year after a year out for intercalation, and had exams at the end of her first. The medical school then messed up the OSCI at the end of the second and used the same scenario for two days, without warning students not to talk about it. Surprise, surprise those on the second day won all the prizes. DD was in the first batch and did OK, but one or two of the early ones just scraped through when it might have been kinder to fail them, tell them to buck up, and ask them to repeat the year. The guess is that since the early groups were relatively disadvantaged the medical school would have been vulnerable to appeals. Third year was Covid so nothing much happened exam wise, then fourth year is finals. Some will presumably fail, but what a pity those on the wrong track, or those not putting in the effort/attendance were not picked up earlier and supported/monitored. The consultant was telling me that it is essentially at professional exam stage, which are brutal, where the wheels now come off. By then, I assume unprofessional habits are ingrained, and people who have got away with things for a decade may assume they can continue to do so.

Awkwardy · 18/11/2021 08:38

(That was to @ChampagneCommunist)

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