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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

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Motorina · 17/11/2021 09:55

@FindTheTruth they certainly should be able to!

In fact their guidance will distinguish between ‘one off’ and ‘repeated’ misconduct when it comes to risk of reputation and thus proportionate sanction.

FindTheTruth · 17/11/2021 09:32

Lovely yes the series of collected tweets could show a coercive abusive 'relationship' over months whereas single tweets don't have that context. Can MPTS chairs understand this as well as say a court judge?

Lovelyricepudding · 17/11/2021 09:16

Thanks Motorina that is helpful.

Motorina · 17/11/2021 09:07

@Lovelyricepudding

I am suspicious of this 'looking at one tweet at a time to decide if it is offensive'. Fortunately I have never been stalked but I can well imagine a series of actions such as leaving flowers and little gifts on your doorstep, tweeting you look tired and shold take a rest, offering to meet for a coffee etc that individually would look totally innocuous or even pleasant and would need to be taken in context to be seen for the abusive gaslight in they are.
That's partly what they're arguing about. The defence has said that the GMC must explicitely state which tweets are offensive or whatever. They're trying to knock them down one at a time.

Right now, for example, they're arguing about which of the tweets he admits were actually about E.

Then they'll argue about which, if any, were offensive.

They're hoping to knock off so many that the impact of what's left is minimised.

In cake terms, the GMC are saying "You ate the lot" and he's saying, "I had the blueberry muffin and the iced bun, I licked the brownie but didn't eat it, and I didn't touch the jammy donut."

However, the GMC have made it clear in their submissions that part of their criticism is the sheer volume of tweets. (It doesn't matter which specific cakes you ate, what matters is you scoffed more than your fair share.)

That approach is also clear in the charges. Charge 14 breaks down individual tweets. Once charge 14 is found, then charge 15, in particular 15b ("intended to intimidate") and 15c ("part of a campaign of cyber bullying"), invite the panel to consider the impact of all the tweets as a package.

I agree with what you say about stalking and the need to look in context. But, before you can look at the behaviour in the round, you have to actually prove that the flowers, and the gifts, and the concerned tweets, and the invitations had in fact all come from the stalker. So, to lay out your stalking example as charges, it might read.

  1. You behaved inappropriately to person A, in that:
1a On 1st Jan, you sent her flowers 1b On 4th Jan, you left chocolates on her doorstep 1c On 7th Jan, you left her a card 1d Between 12th and 14th Jan you sent her a series of romantic texts 1e On 17th Jan you went up to her at work and said, "You look really tired" 1f On 18th Jan you asked her for coffee

2 Your actions in paragraph one were
2a Intended to intimidate
2b Were sexually motivated
2c Continued after she asked you to stop

Then at stage two, the question will be, "Does repeatedly approaching someone, after they've asked you to stop, in a way which is intimidating and sexually motivated count as misconduct?"

Hopefully that makes sense? It's a very particular way of making structured decisions, which can seem quite artificial. But it's designed to make it transparent to everyone exactly what the criticisms are.

FannyCann · 17/11/2021 08:50

I also remember tweets from another Twitter doctor who is comparatively young, tweets quite personal stuff, has a rainbow in his profile and is very out warning him that he should stop.

But he wasn't above dishing out similar advice to someone more junior than him. In fact although he mostly targeted women he did occasionally go for men - especially those in a more inferior nhs role.

Harrop MPTS Hearing
Harrop MPTS Hearing
Lovelyricepudding · 17/11/2021 08:44

I am suspicious of this 'looking at one tweet at a time to decide if it is offensive'. Fortunately I have never been stalked but I can well imagine a series of actions such as leaving flowers and little gifts on your doorstep, tweeting you look tired and shold take a rest, offering to meet for a coffee etc that individually would look totally innocuous or even pleasant and would need to be taken in context to be seen for the abusive gaslight in they are.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 17/11/2021 08:29

Thank you, @Motorina, for the amazing insight.

And I love everyone's cake analogies.

Huckleberries73 · 17/11/2021 08:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

JustcameoutGC · 17/11/2021 07:55

@Cwenthryth i would be surprised if there werent very specific social media guidelines for doctors dealing with how they shouldn't attempt or appear to diagnose anyone on SM, or make insinuations about their health.

I mean, if i call your kid ugly on facebook that is bad, but if a paediatrician does it, that us vvvvvv bad, and likely professional misconduct

Sophoclesthefox · 17/11/2021 07:17

Thanks for the explanation, @Motorina, very clear, and even better for being cake based Grin

Cwenthryth · 17/11/2021 06:49

Surely any public comment about someone else’s health/mental health - like calling someone MH-related slurs etc - is offensive objectively whoever does it, but becomes more inappropriate when done by a practicing doctor who has privileges and responsibilities around diagnosis? The tribunal tweets seemed to suggest that “offensive” would be a worse thing than “inappropriate” but surely that’s not the case in every instance.

JustcameoutGC · 17/11/2021 06:31

My favourite version of this is where he is advised by his legal team he is fucked, that his only way out is to show true remorse and attrition. He then grovels, badly. Which pisses the judges off even more and they increase the length of suspension.
I hope they have one of those people who draw court room pictures there. I reckon they would be priceless.

FindTheTruth · 17/11/2021 05:52

Harrop and his tweets on "micro-dosing" females who identify as non-binary with testosterone.

does anyone have screenshots?

nettie434 · 17/11/2021 00:36

@NotTerfNorCis

Read the Mail article with interest. So Harrop's support of 'C' has landed him in trouble. Good. Also interesting that senior medics had spoken to him about his Twitter usage but he refused to stop.
I also remember tweets from another Twitter doctor who is comparatively young, tweets quite personal stuff, has a rainbow in his profile and is very out warning him that he should stop.

A wise person would have seen this as very clear advice.

EyesOpening · 17/11/2021 00:23

I ate all the cake to stop the others getting gastric distress, I was doing it for the greater good, I see that as my job.

Signalbox · 16/11/2021 23:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 23:40

I think my analogy would be AH saying, 'it doesn't matter how much cake I eat, because my reasons for wanting it are special and the others' reasons aren't.'

Terfasaurus · 16/11/2021 23:31

As Harrop is denying many of his posts are inappropriate, it won’t play well for him if the tribunal decides otherwise.

It’s like saying it was fine to eat all the cake because I hadn’t had breakfast and my blood sugar was low, but next time I’ll eat breakfast and not be tempted. And anyway. I only had 3 slices not 6. So it’s not that bad.

Signalbox · 16/11/2021 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 23:26

Thanks, @Motorina, that's a very helpful explanation. I do appreciate all your time on this thread and your expertise.

Motorina · 16/11/2021 22:43

[quote ItsLittoralViolins]@Personwithrage, thanks, that's my inference too. The tweets should be judged 'objectively' against the Code of Conduct (or bearing in mind the Code of Conduct at the very least).[/quote]
It's kind of both, I suspect. It's a multistage process. You'll see references to stage one and stage two. Stage one is a factual stage - were these things which are alledged done. Stage two is misconduct, impairment and sanction - has he breached the code and, if he has, what do we do about it.

It will depend a bit on how the lawyers argue it. But this is what I would expect.

First off, it will be decided whether, as a matter of fact, the tweets were objectively inappropriate, threatening, etc. Depending on what the charges say. I would expect the tweets to speak for themselves, here. Having your personal details and work address published, for example, is no more or less threatening because of the profession of the person publishing them. There are some times when it might be more threatening (if a known arsonist threatens to burn your house down then that's more threatening than if a six year old does) but generally something is threatening or not, almost regardless of who utters it.

It's not impossible that the lawers may try and argue that some of the tweets, whilst not inherently inappropriate, became so because they were posted by a doctor. Or they might simply argue they were inappropriate full stop. Hard to know without being there. But, in either event, it's really a factual decision about what he did,

If it is decided the facts are proved, the next decision will be 'does posting these threatening tweets amount to misconduct?'. That's where the code of conduct comes in. Misconduct is defined as a serious departure from standards which would be considered deplorable by members of the profession. That's a judgement call which the panel will have to make, and they make it in reference both to published standards but also the expectations of the profession.

If it is decided that the facts found proved were misconduct, then the next stage is deciding if his fitness to practice is currently impaired by his misconduct. Misconduct was what happened then. Impairment is the situation now.

Then the final decision is what to do about it. That's sanction.

To go back to my cake analogy:

Findings of fact are, "Last month, someone bought a yummy cake into work and you ate six slices."

Misconduct is "Eating six slices of yummy cake is a bad thing to do. It will make you fat and deprive other people of yummy cake. Your colleages would be shocked to know you vanished the cake!"

Impairment comes in two forms. It's either "If another yummy cake appears in the staff room today, are you at risk of scoffing the lot?" This is where insight and remorse comes in. If the penny has dropped that eating all the cake is inherently selfish, and leads to gastric distress, then you might be less likely to do so again.

Or it's "Scoffing all the cake was so wicked that, even though we are sure you won't do it again, we have to sanction you to make it clear to the rest of the office how unacceptable it is".

Sanction is "You are banned from the office to stop you eating the next cake."

Sorry, that's a lawyer's answer, using many words where only a few would do Wink

NotTerfNorCis · 16/11/2021 22:39

Read the Mail article with interest. So Harrop's support of 'C' has landed him in trouble. Good. Also interesting that senior medics had spoken to him about his Twitter usage but he refused to stop.

Redshoeblueshoe · 16/11/2021 22:21

🎼 shites in mauve satin 🎶🎵🎶 Grin genius

AlecTrevelyan006 · 16/11/2021 21:51
ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 21:45

@Personwithrage, thanks, that's my inference too. The tweets should be judged 'objectively' against the Code of Conduct (or bearing in mind the Code of Conduct at the very least).