Margaret Atwood

5 days, LittleWing. In between those dates, of course, were the rape & death threats and the doxxing.

And possibly the calls from her agent/publicist/publisher about how trans AND NON BINARY EMPLOYEES AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THEIR ALLIES, felt unsafe because of her tweet.

Where are monitors/admins of social media based, are they all in the US, employees of FB/Twitter etc? Or are there some in the UK? So much is filtered through social media, I wonder how much the effect changes between countries and cultures.

I get the feeling that the narratives in the US/ Canada are harder to unpick.

Re: Canada I wonder if the size and population distribution in the U.K. makes it easier for organisations like Woman’s place to visibly organise and gather support?

The US obviously has a completely different structure and political landscape, and many are only vaguely aware of politics in other countries, so of course a lesbian trade unionist from London must be controlled by US Republicans.

I hate, hate hate, that I don't even find the threats remotely surprising anymore. What has happened to our society?

Tues 19th - posts article asking why we can't use the word 'woman'

Sun 24th - posts misrepresentations about JKR/Maya

5 days, LittleWing. In between those dates, of course, were the rape & death threats and the doxxing.

Can someone please confirm my recap upthread? Is this what has happened, in a nutshell?

If you're asking if Atwood has read the primary sources for both JKR and Maya, I would think that it's highly probable that she hasn't.

If you're asking if she's read secondary sources or interpretations of either or both, then that's more likely.

This is the biggest problem really, GC feminists can spend hours writing and rewriting thoughtful, deeply researched and open pieces explaining our position, and while the may get applauded by other GC feminists, the people you really want to be reading them absolutely won't.

Instead someone else will write another piece totally misrepresenting what was written, cherry picking sentences out of context to make them seem unreasonable, and then they'll pitch their piece as "I read it so you don't have to give this awful bigot your clicks and free advertising". And then their piece is the one that gets cited if anyone asks what the original piece says. And their misrepresentation becomes gospel. And anyone suggesting that it might be an idea to read the actual original is seen as supporting bigots and helping them earn money through clicks.

Well quite.

I get the feeling that the narratives in the US/ Canada are harder to unpick.

Do they as a whole rely more on the news channels? Which are biased? I seem to remember someone saying that the newspapers here are akin to the news channels there, ie, a wide range of biases, whereas due to the bbc and requirement for balance, the tv news here is more moderate and tends to show wider range of opposing views.

It means therefore that we have centrist tv shows comparing newspaper headlines which have different takes on things which helps demonstrate how biases work.

Makes me wonder if they then lack seeing that play out weekly. (Just musing.)

Thanks Embarrassing. Sounds plausible if quite depressing and frightening.

I recall seeking out the voices of gc transwomen way back when - Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison, Fionne Orlander among others. As well as reading views and accounts of pro gender views.

I had assumed anyone with an interest would have done similar before broadcasting opinion to 2m people on Twitter.

This whole post is excellent.

I think every social psychologist who has ever written about closed communities, prisoners of war, and thought reform would say that exploration and discussion is not encouraged within these groups and is actively discouraged as a breach of faith and failure of collusion and compliance.

This is chilling and yet also exactly what I see.

What concerns me the most is that I'm seeing this infect fb teaching groups. Other groups too but teachers need to be able to discuss not silence. And presumably, again from what I've seen on edutwitter, teaching courses.

I admire Jessica Triff for this stance as it's plain there is a lot of pressure.

People like Triff, or Debbie Hayton, are able to act as really effective coolers, I think. They can't be accused of not believing in trans people's existence, or knowing nothing of their experience. They may be accused of being anti-trans but it tends to fall flat for most normal people. And they are clear writers who can make a rational argument for what they think.

Someone like Atwood is likely to get more from someone like that than she would from some gc feminist writer who she probably thinks is a fascist or religious conservative, or both.

Not on twitter and this all moved really fast, just a recap... Following the retweet of the Star/"Woman" article (with a terfy caveat) she took something like 48 hours to capitulate and posted an anti JKR and Maya video?

Obviously this is a condensed recap but just so I can keep up...!

you'd read at least one or two things to try and get a feel for what you were arguing against? No?!

You and I would as would many people who post on FWR. Look how many visitors attempt to 'set us straight' on something or assert that we will never have heard of something to which they read a glancing reference 5 minutes before. Or those whose innate superiority tells them that their knowledge is equivalent to that of women who've been in and around this for years.

Helen Joyce searched high and low for codified arguments that she could critique and use as a basis for her book. She couldn't find arguments or science and nobody could signpost her even to a place on the map that said, 'Here be dragons' rather than 'Here be the endless oceans of emotion to distract you from the cavernous abyss where you'd hope to see the stores of knowledge'.

I think every social psychologist who has ever written about closed communities, prisoners of war, and thought reform would say that exploration and discussion is not encouraged within these groups and is actively discouraged as a breach of faith and failure of collusion and compliance. For all her power and status, Atwood is a member of one of these communities.

I think you're right, Embarrassing. It only just occurred to me the other day, when she said she'd have to look up 'gc'.

It's astonishing to me that someone would come out all guns blazing on a contentious issue ... having only read/researched one side of it. It's just bizarre. Surely to fuck you'd read at least one or two things to try and get a feel for what you were arguing against? No?!

If you're asking if she's read secondary sources or interpretations of either or both, then that's more likely.

I think, on balance, Atwood is taking her pre-digested opinions and thought-terminating clichés from others to whom she has outsourced her opinions on the practice of this ideology. This is how the community that she is organises itself.

[quote WarriorN]The author of the opinion piece she RT has been asked to review it to include violence against trans / non binary stats, after umpteen complaints.

They've said no, but it's still nuts.

twitter.com/jessicavt76/status/1452738089672220690?s=21[/quote]
I admire Jessica Triff for this stance as it's plain there is a lot of pressure. (This is the author that some commenters were alleging didn't exist and was a sock for Atwood through their sleuthing on iwl and wouldn't full retract this speculation even when people on their own thread were managing to find Google entries for Triff that they'd missed?)

Even if the publisher changes it without Triff's consent, I applaud anyone who is defending the principle of the published piece in the absence of errors.

Yes, despite my profound pessimism about so many aspects of contemporary ideology and politics, I search for the rubies among the rubble.

Would it be possible, do you think, that Atwood has not read JK Rowling's essay, nor anything about Maya's case? Really?

The author of the opinion piece she RT has been asked to review it to include violence against trans / non binary stats, after umpteen complaints.

They've said no, but it's still nuts.

twitter.com/jessicavt76/status/1452738089672220690?s=21

It’s just such a shitty thing to do, directing a pile on to someone else.

Even if you don’t fully understand the argument, you do understand the abuse you’re getting, and you do understand that you’re therefore purposefully trying to subject others to that same abuse. Yet you’ve shown you don’t even understand their ‘crime’

So low

I was thinking of the SF book. It's very weird and anti-woman. But she's recommending it?

SF had a prominent place in the recent British Library exhibition: Unfinished Business: The Fight for Women's Rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4304834-British-Library-exhibition-Unfinished-Business-The-Fight-for-Womens-Rights

Why wouldn't Atwood perceive SF as a notable cultural figure that is relevant to the UK and internationally? The BL did not include SF's more notorious tweets as part of SF's section in a cabinet of glory.

Posted by Linda Blade - Irwin is a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta:

twitter.com/coachblade/status/1452349971521425410