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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Margaret Atwood

567 replies

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 19/10/2021 14:22

twitter.com/MargaretAtwood/status/1450429768067846145?t=8q-A8MlvzZsx6pt4Vu1_LA&s=19

Has retweeted an article from the Toronto Star "why can't we say woman anymore" and bloody hell are they coming for the latest witch burning in the comments!

Ranging from disappointment to the usual sweary abuse. I thought oh how long till the capitulation begins, turns out I didn't have to wait long!

She's following it up with retweets about 'we can say people when it's accurate and inclusive' and then defending the article because the writer isn't "a terf"???

Not really sure what she's trying to achieve here, anyone?

OP posts:
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19
merrymouse · 19/10/2021 16:39

‘TERF’ with its explicit condemnation of radical feminists is such a sexist term.

It’s the 2021 version of ‘I’m not one of those man hating dungaree wearing bra burners’.

NonnyMouse1337 · 19/10/2021 16:38

@NecessaryScene

She can't be particularly intelligent if she hasn't realised that any questioning of gender dogma brings out the frothing zealots demanding fire and brimstone upon the herectic.

She lives in Canada, and as I understand it, the chances of actually getting an accurate picture of what's going from their normal media is slim - particularly in this area, but also many others.

If she's made no effort to actually dig into it, she may well be totally oblivious. She's written on the area a few times, but she's always seemed very out of touch with current events (like Butler) - just writing in vague handwavey ways.

She must have surely noticed the weird language contortions increasingly common in Canadian media, and maybe they've somewhat annoyed her and triggered this, but she may well have no conception that complaining about it is enough to make you a TERF.

But she uses Twitter. She must have seen the outrage generated when people like Richard Dawkins asked simple questions. You don't have to wade deep into the 'other side' to get a sense that any form of dissent is met with howls of rage.

If she's eager to denounce heretics while making zero effort to dig into it, then again that doesn't reflect well on her. A couple of years ago it would be understandable if you weren't aware of the violent and authoritarian tendencies of transactivism. Less so now.

Igneo · 19/10/2021 16:35

@EsmaCannonball
I’d be very interested to read critical reviews of the 2nd+ series... can you recommend any?

rabbitwoman · 19/10/2021 16:30

I am gratified to see several people reminding her of the letter she signed denouncing JKRowling.

EsmaCannonball · 19/10/2021 16:27

No sympathy for her whatsoever. Replying that the writer isn't a terf is a real 'Do it to Julia!' moment. Don't come for me! Burn those women!

I know she didn't write it, but she was a producer on the second season of The Handmaid's Tale, when they had to shoehorn in a pro-commercial surrogacy storyline, just in case the viewers mistakenly thought the show was in favour of those bad feminists who don't think the rich have the right to exploit poor women's circumstances. There were lots of problems with that show but that was the moment I gave up. I don't expect all the culture I consume to be feminist, but I hate it when things use feminism to gain an audience, and then just aren't.

OvaHere · 19/10/2021 16:24

This is interesting. Not because of her reaction to the pile on, it's a given that she will try to appease and do the whole 'I'm not like those women' dance.

It's interesting because despite all her efforts to be a good TWAW ally something is clearly niggling at her consciousness. That something won't go away, even if she renounces her sins this time around, it will grow bigger over time.

NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 16:23

She can't be particularly intelligent if she hasn't realised that any questioning of gender dogma brings out the frothing zealots demanding fire and brimstone upon the herectic.

She lives in Canada, and as I understand it, the chances of actually getting an accurate picture of what's going from their normal media is slim - particularly in this area, but also many others.

If she's made no effort to actually dig into it, she may well be totally oblivious. She's written on the area a few times, but she's always seemed very out of touch with current events (like Butler) - just writing in vague handwavey ways.

She must have surely noticed the weird language contortions increasingly common in Canadian media, and maybe they've somewhat annoyed her and triggered this, but she may well have no conception that complaining about it is enough to make you a TERF.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 19/10/2021 16:19

She's trending now, they are absolutely gunning for her. Surely she must see. That layer of protection you think you have is gossamer thin. One breath out of place, it all goes away and what they really think of you comes tumbling out. What they always think of women who don't parrot mantras or keep their mouths shut.

You can try and stitch it back together with a grovelling apology but it'll never be the same. Much better to tell them all to eff off.

OP posts:
ditalini · 19/10/2021 16:19

She thought that they were just asking women to budge up and make a little room for the poor old TW.

She thought that she could keep on doing what she was doing and just say TWAW.

Now she's seeing that no, language itself must submit. She can't have a Handmaid's tale any more - Transphobe! Not all people-forced-to-be-inpregnated-by-religious-zealots are women!

Everything she ever wrote about feminism and women which is often centred around the physical realities of womenhood and how this is used to oppress women, must be de-gendered. Good luck with that.

Maybe a little light will come on but I'm not holding my breath.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 19/10/2021 16:15

Oh, that's very interesting. And it will be even more interesting to see how she reacts to the 'burn the witch' mob.

Come on Margaret, don't cave!

NonnyMouse1337 · 19/10/2021 16:08

She can't be particularly intelligent if she hasn't realised that any questioning of gender dogma brings out the frothing zealots demanding fire and brimstone upon the herectic.

bellinisurge · 19/10/2021 15:56

"I actually feel a tiny bit sorry for women like Atwood, because it must be like walking on egg shells all the time"
Women have lost their jobs and been hauled up in court for less. So, no, I don't feel sorry for her.

MedusasBadHairDay · 19/10/2021 15:52

Starts countdown timer for apology and throwing of article author to the wolves..

Andante57 · 19/10/2021 15:29

@Signalbox

How long until the grovelling apology?
Stalin must be looking up from hell and having a good laugh.
TreXX · 19/10/2021 15:25

Many comments on the Twitter post have a very 'all lives matter' vibe.

And yet they don't see it.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/10/2021 15:19

After what she’s said in the past I have no doubt that she will capitulate and issue an apology very soon

ErrolTheDragon · 19/10/2021 15:18

(Following complaints last night and this morning, ACAS has now deigned to use the word 'women' in its advice on the menopause a couple of times.)

NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 15:18

And we can see here that there is absolutely no slack whatsoever. Atwood has been an enthusiastic cheerleader of TWAW for years, but she retweets one slightly questioning article and suddenly she’s an evil witch.

Good article on that by ExcelPope:

Why J K Rowling must die

Margaret Atwood
NecessaryScene · 19/10/2021 15:15

I think she is naive enough to have believed the campaigners' descriptions of "TERFs": an apocryphal group of evil bigots who hate trans people for... some reason... and want to send them all off to camps.

She just hasn't noticed the difference between the "TERF" in the mythology and the real women who are actually being called "TERFs".

ErrolTheDragon · 19/10/2021 15:13

I can't read the article, can anyone?
What the tweeters seem to be disingenuously missing is that while sure, we can still say 'woman', it's starting to be systematically written out of official documents of various sorts, health campaigns etc. We've got some egregious examples from Scotland, yesterday ACAS, today the website of a girls school which avoids using the word 'girl'.

WeeBisom · 19/10/2021 15:10

I actually feel a tiny bit sorry for women like Atwood, because it must be like walking on egg shells all the time. It is very, very difficult to wholeheartedly agree with everything that trans ideology demands simply because a lot of it is unscientific, illogical, and harmful to women. And we can see here that there is absolutely no slack whatsoever. Atwood has been an enthusiastic cheerleader of TWAW for years, but she retweets one slightly questioning article and suddenly she’s an evil witch. I have a friend who is a trans rights activist and she keeps getting distressed because if she says the wrong thing , or asks a controversial question, she gets called a t* and is told to re-educate herself until she’s a better ally (this is coming from her trans friends). Personally I couldn’t live like that, and I would get pissed off really quickly. But I imagine for some people there is a real fear of being branded gender critical so they want to cling to their ally status at all costs.

Lammysaurus · 19/10/2021 15:07

Well, she's correct, the writer is not a TERF, not that Margaret Atwood should even be using that term. However, the small addled children who live on Twitter no doubt think everyone who isn't exactly like them and doesn't prattle misogynist nonsense all day long is a "TERF" and have no idea what it means.

If they met an actual TERF - which is very unlikely - they'd probably wet their pants.

Joystir59 · 19/10/2021 15:06

Watching with interest

LobsterNapkin · 19/10/2021 15:06

@NecessaryScene

I just got the impression she hadn't actually read what the TWAW crowd were actually saying, or thought through the consequences.

She may genuinely have no idea that the article is "TERFy".

Yeah, I think this is about the size of it. She has no clue.
bellinisurge · 19/10/2021 15:05

Surely she should know how abusive the word TERF is? I mean, aren't words her actual day job? Watching the craven reversal will be fun/depressing