Margaret Atwood

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 2021-10-19T13:22:48+00:00

[[https://twitter.com/MargaretAtwood/status/1450429768067846145?t=8q-A8MlvzZsx6pt4Vu1_LA&s=19]] Has retweeted an article from the Toronto Star "why can't we say woman anymore" and bloody hell are they coming for the latest witch burning in the comments! Ranging from disappointment to the usual sweary abuse. I thought oh how long till the capitulation begins, turns out I didn't have to wait long! She's following it up with retweets about 'we can say people when it's accurate and inclusive' and then defending the article because the writer isn't "a terf"??? Not really sure what she's trying to achieve here, anyone?

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 14:48

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

No one wanted kids to think that a young woman trading her voice to be fuckable* was equal to no longer existing.

She became a mans idea of the ultimate woman- he can rape her all he likes and she can’t say a word about it.

jhuizinga · 30/10/2021 14:27

@trancepants

Oh god. I actually wrote out my very similar thoughts on Netflix' Bridgerton series on this thread yesterday but deleted it in case I sounded racist. But I couldn't help but watch it and feel that it was deceptive in a way that would lead to way too many people unaware of how ludicrous a fiction it was. That while I understand how great it can be for actors to get cast in these roles, that ultimately this huge pretence that the racism of the past hadn't happened, that we do a massive disservice to the people who suffered it and the people who across generations fought to change it. We lose so much understanding of some of the worst and best that people are capable of. It would be fine if everyone truly understood that it's a complete fantasy, that the past wasn't like that. But we know that's not how it works. For huge swathes of the population, this shit is their main exposure to "history." And they are left with an utterly distorted picture of the past.

I didn't watch Bridgerton, partly because I really dislike film and TV dramas which are ostensibly set in the past but reflect modern views. I do think they are deceptive. The fact that it's impossible now to have a historical drama without a diverse cast gives such a misleading picture of the UK as it was before the second half of the 20th Century (though I take the point that this provides opportunities for the actors). It seems to me that, for people who get their understanding of the past from anachronistic drama, the fact that there appears to have been lots of people from ethnic minorities yet all actual historical Britons (royals, politicians, famous people etc) were white gives a false impression that this was an extremely racist country rather than one which was, apart from very large cities and ports, overwhelmingly white. Black American GIs who came to the UK during WW2 were often the first non-white people many Britons encountered and were warmly welcomed because there was no toxic history of race relations as in the US.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 30/10/2021 14:05

@nauticant

I hope you didn't feel scolded. I was just thrilled to have a pretext to talk about the complexity of folktales before the sanitisation started a couple of hundred years back.

No, not at all scolded, don't worry! But yes, it was really my lazy description, relating to the whole "fairytale happy ever after" thing that many of us have been brought up with, courtesy of Disney. I mean, I was so cross that they changed the ending of the Little Mermaid in case it upset people, that I wouldn't go and see it! All because they didn't want to traumatise kids when the mermaid returns to the sea as foam, after failing to gain the heart of "her" prince.

I love that it brought on such a good discussion though!

ArtemesiaK · 30/10/2021 13:03

I only watched a couple of episodes of Bridgerton because I just didn't get into it, but I'm afraid the thing that struck me was that there was only one token short, plump young women among a sea of tall slim ones....Society should spare a thought for those of us growing up with short legs in a world of songs like "Pretty Flamingo" and the "Girl from Ipanema". The world is shortphobic!

ArabellaScott · 30/10/2021 12:57

This one: theweereview.com/review/the-grandmothers-grimm/

It was a fantastic piece of theatre.

ArabellaScott · 30/10/2021 12:56

I saw a fab play recently on the female storytellers from whom the Brothers Grimm nicked the stories.

nauticant · 30/10/2021 12:40

I hope you didn't feel scolded. I was just thrilled to have a pretext to talk about the complexity of folktales before the sanitisation started a couple of hundred years back.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 30/10/2021 11:46

Ah yes, I did rather mean the earlier versions of Disneyfied fairy tales vs the more modern versions with princesses "doing it for themselves", rather than going back to the "original" Grimm or Hans Christian Andersen collections, many of which were likely to have been drawn from older cultural stories. I have several Russian folklore story books as well - even darker, in many cases! Pinocchio, too.

nauticant · 29/10/2021 22:15

^^

Not possible. Having read the thread I had to go and make sure my copy of Folktales Told Around the World (Richard M. Dorson) was still safe.

There's gold in them thar tales:

sites.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/Motif_Help.htm

ditalini · 29/10/2021 22:10

@IfNot

No Bridgerton doesn’t have dragons.

Are you really that literal? I mean, if you don’t like it don’t watch it but it’s just a series inspired by a set of novels, it’s an interpretation not factual. I don’t have any idea what fanwanking is but I do know that roles for black peoples don’t always have to be slaves or maids or be utterly faithful to historical accuracy. Most dramas set in the past near very little resemblance to reality! Not sure why it would make anyone seemingly so angry tbh.

I thought the Bridgerton series made it quite clear in a couple of places that is was set in an alternate universe where black immigrants had successfully integrated with high society (personified by Charlotte snagging a king) but that they were aware that this social success was new and potentially precarious.

The books are bog standard regency romance but the tv series adds a little twist to allow more diverse casting than would otherwiae be realistic. I think they did it really well.

BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 22:02

And Goldilocks and the three bears is a lesson to girls who indulge their desires and seek to satiate their impulses.

RepentMotherfucker · 29/10/2021 21:58

[quote BloodinGutters]@RepentMotherfucker

And a variation on red ridinghood called grandaunt tiger where the aunt disembowles one child and ties the intensines to the other to stop them getting out of the shared bed at night.

Have you ever read Alice Millers interpretation of red ridinghood? The red cap is the mother prettying up her daughter before pimping her out to the incestous father (wolf) as a sacrifice to keep the rest of the family/town safe.[/quote]
Oh that's really obvious actually isn't it? Although I had never seen it. 'Put on your nice cape and go on a horrible mission that will certainly end in your death.'

RepentMotherfucker · 29/10/2021 21:56

But thanks Countess!

BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 21:56

@RepentMotherfucker

And a variation on red ridinghood called grandaunt tiger where the aunt disembowles one child and ties the intensines to the other to stop them getting out of the shared bed at night.

Have you ever read Alice Millers interpretation of red ridinghood? The red cap is the mother prettying up her daughter before pimping her out to the incestous father (wolf) as a sacrifice to keep the rest of the family/town safe.

RepentMotherfucker · 29/10/2021 21:55

There's a version of little red riding hood where she tricks the wolf by claiming she needs to go to the loo and running away. While she's untying the rope he's put on her leg he starts shouting 'are you having a shit out there?' and 'Are you making a load?'.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 29/10/2021 21:53

RepentMothrrfucker

You have nailed it

RepentMotherfucker · 29/10/2021 21:52

@nauticant

I continually boggle at the fact that any study of literature, along with other social science disciplines, doesn't have a compulsory module about the origins and meanings of fairy tales RepentMotherfucker.

Oooh yes that would be great. I find it really sad when people write 'feminist fairytales' and they are obviously not aware of the vast wealth of female centred stories that were floating around before the Grimms and Perrault started buggering everything up.

There's a version of Sleeping Beauty where the prince rapes her in her sleep and she's woken by her newborn twins suckling on her

RepentMotherfucker · 29/10/2021 21:48

@SinoohXaenaHide

Totally agree about historical fiction which portrays all the "good guys" as having modern values of tolerance and liberalism. I stopped watching Anne with an E when it just stoppes making any sense at all as being set in any kind of reality rather than an alternative history fantasy.

I think that's different from eg Hamilton where it's not so much about pretending that historical figures were actually black but casting the roles to actors without reference to whether the actor's skin tone matches the skin tone of the historical character any more than the casting decisions would expect to ensure the character's hair or eye colour was was correctly matched by the actor. That seems like a good thing.

I agree.

Bridgerton is just a romp and can romp about in all departments including costume and casting.

Shakespeare is most often cast adrift from the Renaissance anyway and is probably just a special case tbh.

It's when it's supposed to be WW2 and all the good characters are like, 'oh you're gay? And this is your north African lover? How cool. But hide from the Nazis because they are totally racist and homophobic. I heard the Commandant once called someone a homophobic slur in an SS interrogation.'

nauticant · 29/10/2021 21:43

I continually boggle at the fact that any study of literature, along with other social science disciplines, doesn't have a compulsory module about the origins and meanings of fairy tales RepentMotherfucker.

SinoohXaenaHide · 29/10/2021 21:40

Totally agree about historical fiction which portrays all the "good guys" as having modern values of tolerance and liberalism. I stopped watching Anne with an E when it just stoppes making any sense at all as being set in any kind of reality rather than an alternative history fantasy.

I think that's different from eg Hamilton where it's not so much about pretending that historical figures were actually black but casting the roles to actors without reference to whether the actor's skin tone matches the skin tone of the historical character any more than the casting decisions would expect to ensure the character's hair or eye colour was was correctly matched by the actor. That seems like a good thing.

RepentMotherfucker · 29/10/2021 21:34

@nauticant

This seems to take us back to fairy tales, where you have such simple characters - the princess in need of rescue, the prince who is her rescuing hero, and the Wicked Witch or Evil Wizard. No nuance, despite Disney's best efforts in recent years to make the princesses able to rescue themselves more, and the "wickedness" to be due to past trauma or being misunderstood.

Is this about Disney fairy tales rather the ancient ones based on folklore? The latter are about giving children a (n ironically) safe space in which they can reflect on the good and bad within all people and within themselves and that the world can be arbitrary and cruel. They're a preparation for growing up into a world which might not actually be nice and kind.

Yes! I keep saying this!

nauticant · 29/10/2021 21:30

This seems to take us back to fairy tales, where you have such simple characters - the princess in need of rescue, the prince who is her rescuing hero, and the Wicked Witch or Evil Wizard. No nuance, despite Disney's best efforts in recent years to make the princesses able to rescue themselves more, and the "wickedness" to be due to past trauma or being misunderstood.

Is this about Disney fairy tales rather the ancient ones based on folklore? The latter are about giving children a (n ironically) safe space in which they can reflect on the good and bad within all people and within themselves and that the world can be arbitrary and cruel. They're a preparation for growing up into a world which might not actually be nice and kind.

nauticant · 29/10/2021 21:23

The good guys are only allowed to be good, they can't be nuanced or complex. Unfortunately I think that is then felt IRL, you can't agree on some things and disagree on others, or understand that someone can be largely a good person but sometimes get things wrong. If anyone puts a foot wrong, even if they are normally saint like, they must be written off as a lost cause.

How do young people deal with this for their own placing in the world? By curating a flawless image on social media while knowing that it's fake and knowing that they themselves are failing to meet these impossible standards and thus are failures. Leading to a dissociation of personality and mental ill health.

rabbitwoman · 29/10/2021 21:10

@Andante57

This presumption that the present's notion of "right" and "wrong" is better than the past one. Or some potential future one

Indeed. I sometimes wonder what will be the cancellable offences in 50 years time.
I guess it will be something none of can predict - I mean who imagined 20 years ago that people could lose their jobs for saying only women can have children or whatever.

I cannot answer that, but I got a mini pile on the other day from vegans lecturing me about saying meat was tasty.

I was a vegetarian for 23 years so I responded by saying I was content with my decisions to eat meat again and I smiled as I made my case and they became more irrate that I would not capitulate.

So it is still fairly easy to stand up for my right to eat meat but in five years time? Who knows!?

IfNot · 29/10/2021 20:57

No Bridgerton doesn’t have dragons.
Are you really that literal?
I mean, if you don’t like it don’t watch it but it’s just a series inspired by a set of novels, it’s an interpretation not factual. I don’t have any idea what fanwanking is but I do know that roles for black peoples don’t always have to be slaves or maids or be utterly faithful to historical accuracy. Most dramas set in the past near very little resemblance to reality! Not sure why it would make anyone seemingly so angry tbh.