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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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59 replies

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 08:40

Today prog - Nolan talk about the podcast

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BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 10:21

We actually need a public enquiry into Stonewall, I think. There has been a major misuse of public funds by the BBC, and possibly a major breach of their charter. A misuse of public funds by OfCom, the Civil Service, the ECHR etc. Dentons seeking to influence public life in an unprecedented manner for a private law firm. This is as big as Savile. All of it needs to set out for the public to digest and understand what has been done.

I agree with this but I am heartened by the fact that this is now being talked about and increasingly so. The genie is now out of the bottle and it won't be going back in.

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BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 10:17

@Eucalyptustrees

Because married heterosexual women like Mishal Husein are really cool about homosexuality being changed to heterosexuality. They don't object so why should gay and lesbians?
I don't think that's fair to MH or true of heterosexual women Eucalyptus
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Doomscrolling · 18/10/2021 10:12

Excellent to hear it featuring on Today, such a high profile programme

Anontwentyone · 18/10/2021 10:09

@Mischance

Why do Stonewall wield such influence? I have never understood this.
Their workplace equality index is basically blackmail.

If your company is not on it, you'll be branded as "unsafe" for LGBTQ+ workers.

The higher up you get on the index the less "unsafe" you are.

Obviously you need to pay Stonewall good money to climb higher up the index too.

Pterfodactyl · 18/10/2021 10:07

@RoyalCorgi

I didn't feel that the segment covered the topic that well. For example, unless I missed it, they didn't really explain how Stonewall is misrepresenting the law. We have to remember that although most of us understand this stuff inside out, the average person has no idea what's going on, or what the Equality Act is, or what protected characteristics are.
To be honest, it never will to those of us for who have lived and breathed the intricacies of this stuff for years. That's the problem with every current affairs programme where all you get is a couple of minutes at best. It's easier when they are dealing with a discrete issue that has been effected, e.g.,freedom of speech. People can look at it through that lens, rather than the batshitery of gender theory. In 30 seconds, it is almost impossible to explain why changing the definition of homosexual from same sex to same gender attracted matters, or the finer subtleties of the Equality Act. People who are not in the know, not gay, not a GC woman and who use gender and sex interchangeably in every day parlance, don't realise that they are firing metaphorical loaded guns when they use those words. And I think that confusion and uncertainty is exactly what Stonewall wanted: because once everyone is confused - and throw their hands up and say, "You can't say anything now without causing offence! " - then Stonewall can sweep in and tell you what to say, tell you what is "right". And people will let them, because they are kind and want a quiet life, or not confident in their own beliefs and intelligence, or fearful or simply don't care because it doesn't really effect them.

We actually need a public enquiry into Stonewall, I think. There has been a major misuse of public funds by the BBC, and possibly a major breach of their charter. A misuse of public funds by OfCom, the Civil Service, the ECHR etc. Dentons seeking to influence public life in an unprecedented manner for a private law firm. This is as big as Savile. All of it needs to set out for the public to digest and understand what has been done.

LizzieSiddal · 18/10/2021 10:06

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Mischance
Why do Stonewall wield such influence? I have never understood this.
Because they have a halo from all the outstanding work that they did achieve for LGB plus the residual guilt from Aids…

Plus they lie about the Law, claiming in advice documents to organisations that “gender identity” is a protected characteristic when it is not. So organisations believe this and write it into their policies. Anyone who challenges it, they point to “the Law says..” not knowing they’ve been lied to by Stonewall.

Eucalyptustrees · 18/10/2021 10:05

Because married heterosexual women like Mishal Husein are really cool about homosexuality being changed to heterosexuality. They don't object so why should gay and lesbians?

RoyalCorgi · 18/10/2021 10:02

They did say that SW were subtly changing the EA wording from Gender Reassignment to Gender Identity. And i think getting it in that they have changed the definition of homosexuality will definitely bring in interest from people who wouldn't have known about that.

That's true. If you don't know about the finer detail of this stuff, though, you wouldn't understand the significance of misrepresenting gender reassignment as gender identity. You need to spell it out.

Similarly, if you're not familiar with the sex-gender distinction, you might not understand the difference between same-sex attraction and same-gender attraction.

nauticant · 18/10/2021 09:58

Guilt and also fear that they will be perceived of continuing the wrongs in any way.

BreadInCaptivity · 18/10/2021 09:55

I'd love Nolan to do a follow up set of programmes about how the Stonewall influence has manifested outwards. Looking at current affairs programmes we have all complained about - Women's Hour, Victoria Derbyshire, Newsnight, Today et al - where there have been no women allowed to speak on the matter of the erasure of language referring to women, safeguarding etc; and to conduct research into the "no debate" stance of the TRA bodies, which has been translated into them complaining that the BBC is biased and won't let them speak, when they just refuse to turn up. How many very valid news items did not reach the airwaves? Eg, Maya's case and Women's Hour. What editorial decisions were being made to not talk about these issues and why?

Agree and I'd love them to interview Jenny Murray who as we know was gagged on discussing this issue.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 18/10/2021 09:54

@Mischance

Why do Stonewall wield such influence? I have never understood this.
Because they have a halo from all the outstanding work that they did achieve for LGB plus the residual guilt from Aids…
MonsignorMirth · 18/10/2021 09:51

@RoyalCorgi

I didn't feel that the segment covered the topic that well. For example, unless I missed it, they didn't really explain how Stonewall is misrepresenting the law. We have to remember that although most of us understand this stuff inside out, the average person has no idea what's going on, or what the Equality Act is, or what protected characteristics are.
They did say that SW were subtly changing the EA wording from Gender Reassignment to Gender Identity. And i think getting it in that they have changed the definition of homosexuality will definitely bring in interest from people who wouldn't have known about that.
Mischance · 18/10/2021 09:44

Why do Stonewall wield such influence? I have never understood this.

RoyalCorgi · 18/10/2021 09:38

I didn't feel that the segment covered the topic that well. For example, unless I missed it, they didn't really explain how Stonewall is misrepresenting the law. We have to remember that although most of us understand this stuff inside out, the average person has no idea what's going on, or what the Equality Act is, or what protected characteristics are.

Pterfodactyl · 18/10/2021 09:36

Mishal Husain is very definitely in the "be kind" camp.

It's hard to know what has happened with BBC news people, with regard to how their internal training has influenced their actual job performance. Do they believe what Stonewall has told them to believe? Do they really think that there is no harm being done by TRAs? Is it fear of reprisals? Fear of never being able to work again for a reputable organisation is they step out of line? Fear of the threats, which surely will disproportionately effect female journalists, as any woman saying anything in public about anything some bloke doesn't like is a target?

I'd love Nolan to do a follow up set of programmes about how the Stonewall influence has manifested outwards. Looking at current affairs programmes we have all complained about - Women's Hour, Victoria Derbyshire, Newsnight, Today et al - where there have been no women allowed to speak on the matter of the erasure of language referring to women, safeguarding etc; and to conduct research into the "no debate" stance of the TRA bodies, which has been translated into them complaining that the BBC is biased and won't let them speak, when they just refuse to turn up. How many very valid news items did not reach the airwaves? Eg, Maya's case and Women's Hour. What editorial decisions were being made to not talk about these issues and why?

nauticant · 18/10/2021 09:36

Devil's Advocate would be my view too but I felt in running the interview in that way served to obscure what the podcasts were revealing. I would have preferred for her first instinct to have been "has something interesting being revealed here in which case it should be shared with the audience" rather than going after Nolan and Thompson because they'd gone after Stonewall.

Davros · 18/10/2021 09:35

I had to turn the taps off to listen, that woman work washing up could wait! I missed the beginning but what I heard was excellent

RoastChicory · 18/10/2021 09:34

I wouldn’t read too much into Mishal Hussein’s questions. The BBC’s impartiality policy means that an opposing view has to be presented/people have to be challenged.

Shame they did not apply that internally with Stonewall.

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 09:19

Nick Robinson and Justin Webb have both been very good at covering the topic (as much as they were able). The women on the programme have steered clear, but possibly because they know they will receive far more vitriol than men do.

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BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 09:16

@nauticant I do think Mishal Hussein was playing Devil's advocate.

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JoodyBlue · 18/10/2021 09:01

I just came on to post about that comment by Nick Robinson too. "We don't run it, we just work for it". It highlights the courage of Nolan and Thompson to me, but clear indicator that other journalists see an issue -- it was a distancing comment for sure.

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/10/2021 08:59

Oh, they got so much into a short slot! This will have had a massive audience who now know that the BBC, like so many organisations, has changed the definition of homosexuality from same sex to same gender attraction at Stonewall's behest.

I hope Woman's Hour will pick this up

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catzwhiskas · 18/10/2021 08:59

Today has been excellent in recent times, actually trying to get answers from politicians and others. Especially good on what is a woman. I would really like to see them looking at males in women’s prisons.

ginandbearit · 18/10/2021 08:59

Interesting that BBC couldn't or wouldn't identify other organisations to get guidance from .. Stonewall have the monopoly on T victimisation and the money that comes with ...

nauticant · 18/10/2021 08:58

This is what I wrote on the main thread:

Nolan and Thompson were just interviewed on the Today programme. They got a fair amount of headwind from Mishal Husain and struggled to convey their message in terms of the facts in such a short segment. She didn't seem that interested in the issues of partiality. I couldn't figure out whether she was doing Devil's Advocate or if she views Stonewall simply as part of the furniture at the BBC.

The response on twitter was "bigots" and "Irish bigots" in the main.

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