Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Student being forced to confuse sex and gender in essay or will lose marks

35 replies

Shedbuilder · 17/10/2021 15:48

A GC young woman, daughter of an old friend, is taking a degree at Bristol University and was required to write an essay in which issues of sex and gender came up. She pointed out to her tutor that the some of the definitions of sex and gender, and the way those words are used in the texts and notes she's been pointed to, are unscientific and inconsistent and based in ideology.

The tutor said she couldn't just omit mentioning the subject and she needs to stick to the gender=sex line or she would be marked down. The tutor didn't seem to disagree with her but she ended up feeling that she was being told to just go along with it for her own good.

She's phoned home, distressed. Does she stand up for scientific fact and risk losing marks and outing herself or does she just go along with the brainwashing? She says that if it became known in her accommodation that she's a terf her life will be made hell: one of her flatmates is a full-on ally and she's already watching her every word.

Her career plans include higher level qualifications. The better the first degree she gets, the more opportunities she's likely to have.

Can anyone advise? I can't/ won't disclose any more information for fear of outing her, except to say that I'm astonished that anyone studying the subject she's studying would be expected to cover sex and gender, which seems totally irrelevant.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
BulletandtheBullseye · 18/10/2021 06:16

I disagree they were routinely used synonymously until recently.

I studied women’s studies amount others in the late 90s & early 00s. The difference was very clear then,

If there’s been a period of time in between where they’ve been conflated then that’s the change. And it has huge bearing on evaluating older academic studies/texts and so on if students are pushed to conflate or obfuscate with those terms now. Are students only working from academic theory going back a couple of years? Why cut off the centuries prior? It’s very soviet Russia and a rewrite of history. Only without the acknowledgment there’s been a change in regime.

PeriChristmas · 18/10/2021 05:21

@WeeBisom

If she’s doing a humanities course, such as gender studies, she can’t just say “some of these definitions are wrong and rooted in ideology.” As her tutor I would be encouraging her to engage with the different theories and I would expect her to have a solid understanding of the material before going on a critique. She would also need to explain why and how the definitions are wrong for a solid grade.
I think we are all clear why the definitions are different & it would be perfectly reasonable for her to point this out!
cloudtree · 18/10/2021 05:15

It sounds to me like the essay title has been written by someone who has used the terms sex and gender synonymously. As the vast majority of people did until very recently and as many still do. Unless she's been given an explanation and been told that she is supposed to differentiate between sex and gender for the purposes of the essay then I would assume she is simply supposed to consider biological sex.

I would ask the question of the tutor - "Hi, just for clarity can you confirm that you are asking me to consider the impact of biological sex in this situation? Or are you asking for a consideration of both biological sex and of gender identity (as in the way someone feels about their own sense of identity and the way they like to present to others?). Use of the word "gender" is confusing since it isn't used by people consistently to mean the same thing."

NiceGerbil · 18/10/2021 03:56

I would say

  1. Advise her not to 'sweat the small stuff' as Americans say. Yes she's pissed off and wants to make s stand. In the end though. It's not going to change anything. It's one essay from one student. Her reaction is disproportionate imo.
  1. How important is essay? In terms of contributing towards progression or final score.
  1. It sounds like a bunged in random thing. Not the focus. Can she include something acceptable to her and call it a day.
  1. Science is all about clarity. Definitions. I can't see it would be in any way objectionable to include the definitions that she will be using in her essay for sex and gender. Maximum clarity. And use them both appropriately.

Of course sex and gender do overlap. Eg if plastics factories in X country hire mainly women, no h&s, very low pay. Sex or gender? The gender (sex role) is why they are in that position... Because of their sex.

Can she write something that meets their marking system, that she can also see as reasonable herself from that perspective?

NiceGerbil · 18/10/2021 03:48

Polymers? With lab work etc? Chemistry or some kind of science then.

You say gender stuff miles away from subject.

Sooo. Guessing.

Best bet is uses for polymers / something to do with pollution or issues with production. History of polymers?

Can't think of much else.

The think about gender seems pretty random if it is an essay about that sort of thing.

Coyoacan · 18/10/2021 01:17

One thing for sure though, the University of Bristol comes out of this looking pretty crap

BulletandtheBullseye · 18/10/2021 01:09

She’s been told to be clear that gender=sex?

And you say she thinks her tutor might be secretly gc?

Em, does that mean the tutor wants her to say woman=female? As in woman=adult human female?

Your first post sounds like pro gender ideology tutor, but saying she thinks tutor is gc makes the instruction gender=sex read differently.

KayKayWat · 17/10/2021 23:37

I would just play the game as they want it to get the grade. Only she will lose out if she deliberately chooses the path she's been told will result in her being marked down. Plenty of other battles she can fight in the future, why damage her grade/job prospects etc to make a point nobody will care about.

Cattenberg · 17/10/2021 23:30

It’s crap, but pragmatically, the best thing she can do is follow her tutor’s advice and try to get the best grades she can.

I don’t know what the university thinks it will gain from doing this. It’s not exactly winning hearts and minds. GC people might need to play the long game and try to get themselves into the best academic/career positions they can.

MargaritaPie · 17/10/2021 23:21

What's the degree in?

NewlyGranny · 17/10/2021 19:32

Can she get the tutor to put it in an email, perhaps by emailing to say, "Can you just confirm your advice that I should not distinguish between the terms sex and gender in the essay entitled...due on...?

And if there's no response she should proceed cautiously using the good advice offered above. Highly unlikely any academic is going to be open about that warning!

But very possible she could be marked down for failing to distinguish the terms!

Twelveshoes · 17/10/2021 19:06

Obviously you can’t give the question away, but without knowing it, it is really impossible to say.

It only really matters if it is an area where she is going to have to give biological examples to answer the question. For example health and safety rules and pregnancy, war and genocidal rape, environmental degradation and survival rates.

If she is answering a question like that and gets into trouble for giving examples that refer to sex, there is a problem.

If she is just being asked to use gender in the old fashioned sense that there are different outcomes for the sexes, that’s not a problem either.

If she is being asked to use gender as shorthand for gender identity and not use any sex based examples, that is a problem.

I don’t actually think it is necessary to discuss gender identity at all when looking at sex/gender impacts, unless you are forced to by the texts.

FWIW DD is at uni on an arts course and they are still using sex and gender in the old sex = biological sex and gender= gender roles and social outcomes definition.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 17/10/2021 18:53

If you are applying for postgraduate funding it’s not just a matter of a first or a 2.1 - they will be looking at whether you just scraped a first or had a solid or a high one. So not wanting to risk a single mark over this seems wise to me.

Shedbuilder · 17/10/2021 18:30

@senua

The tutor said she couldn't just omit mentioning the subject and she needs to stick to the gender=sex line or she would be marked down. But it's only one element of one essay in one module in one year. It is unlikely to change her degree classification, surely? Is there a higher-up that she can talk to? Has she got the tutor's 'advice' in writing for reference, if the time comes.
Nothing in writing, everything plausibly deniable. She thinks possibly the tutor is GC but couldn't be sure. I think on this subject she's just going to have to do what she can by following the excellent advice above and passing swiftly on. I was so lucky not to have any of this shit to deal with at college. They were three fabulous, scary, mind-expanding years without the need to tiptoe around on eggshells.

I know it's only a couple of marks (or whatever) but she's got big career plans and it's been made clear to her that a First would get things off to a good start.

OP posts:
senua · 17/10/2021 18:15

The tutor said she couldn't just omit mentioning the subject and she needs to stick to the gender=sex line or she would be marked down.
But it's only one element of one essay in one module in one year. It is unlikely to change her degree classification, surely?
Is there a higher-up that she can talk to? Has she got the tutor's 'advice' in writing for reference, if the time comes.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 17/10/2021 18:13

That's a useful reference ,Embarrassing, thanks

Coyoacan · 17/10/2021 18:03

As it is not her area of study, I guess I would recommend she pretend to be fully on board with all that rubbish. It breaks my heart to say so as honesty is very important to me, but under the circs...

Shedbuilder · 17/10/2021 17:38

@2bazookas

A GC young woman, daughter of an old friend, is taking a degree at Bristol University and was required to write an essay in which issues of sex and gender came up. She pointed out to her tutor that the some of the definitions of sex and gender, and the way those words are used in the texts and notes she's been pointed to, are unscientific and inconsistent and based in ideology.
    Then that is exactly what she should discuss in her essay. 

At university, students are EXPECTED to think for themselves, challenge ideas, argue in tutorials etc. It's even fine to put across a criticism of Jane Austen. .. so long as its persuasive and sensible.

2bazookas, I agree with you — but then I'm old-school and I understand that things are greatly changed at Bristol...

I don't know quite how to say what needs to be said without potentially giving too much away, but imagine that you're a science student who's been doing theory and lab work on polymers. The students have now been asked to write their work up in essay form and onto the title (and reflected in the guidance they've been given in notes) has been tacked a sub-clause about needing to consider gender/ sex in their answer.

I know that sounds bizarre: the real thing is equally as strange. My friend's daughter is wondering whether it's some kind of test to sort the GC from the woke. She is not studying science, not studying polymers.

OP posts:
howard97A · 17/10/2021 17:19

@2bazookas

A GC young woman, daughter of an old friend, is taking a degree at Bristol University and was required to write an essay in which issues of sex and gender came up. She pointed out to her tutor that the some of the definitions of sex and gender, and the way those words are used in the texts and notes she's been pointed to, are unscientific and inconsistent and based in ideology.
    Then that is exactly what she should discuss in her essay. 

At university, students are EXPECTED to think for themselves, challenge ideas, argue in tutorials etc. It's even fine to put across a criticism of Jane Austen. .. so long as its persuasive and sensible.

Some might think that you’re prejudiced!
Shedbuilder · 17/10/2021 17:04

Thanks for those useful suggestions which I've already emailed to her mum.

The texts she's been pointed are, I think (it's difficult to be certain but I've done a bit of googling), full-on POMO queer ideology. It's more than just a transatlantic issue of two countries separated by the same language*.

She is studying a subject about as far removed from Gender Studies as it's possible to get.

I'm hopeless at understanding how modern universities work. I went to the kind of medieval institution where eccentric tutors would say at the end of seminars 'Just write me an essay on XYZ. Minimum 1000 words by 4pm on Tuesday.' XYZ would inevitably be something never previously mentioned, let alone discussed, so there would be a week's panic trying to read everything you could on the subject, making up your mind about it and then framing your own essay title. Terrifying, but it taught me to think.

*GB Shaw.

OP posts:
GreenWhiteViolet · 17/10/2021 16:36

I had this issue when doing my degrees and I found a sociology text which stated that sex = biology, gender = roles/stereotypes. I wrote that my use of the terms throughout the essay followed [author's] distinction. That was I was grounding it in scholarship, not my own opinion/standpoint. Never had any negative comments, although I know most of my lecturers thought TWAW.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 17/10/2021 16:30

I would suggest the student presents the SAGER guidelines as justification for the correct use of sex and gender.

Heidari S, Babor TF, De Castro P, Tort S, Curno M. Sex and Gender Equity in Research: rationale for the SAGER guidelines and recommended use. Res Integr Peer Rev. 2016 May 3;1:2. doi: 10.1186/s41073-016-0007-6. PMID: 29451543; PMCID: PMC5793986.

researchintegrityjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s41073-016-0007-6

WeeBisom · 17/10/2021 16:30

If she’s doing a humanities course, such as gender studies, she can’t just say “some of these definitions are wrong and rooted in ideology.” As her tutor I would be encouraging her to engage with the different theories and I would expect her to have a solid understanding of the material before going on a critique. She would also need to explain why and how the definitions are wrong for a solid grade.

HowardNoir · 17/10/2021 16:28

I think she should trust her tutor's advice and write what's right according to them. It's likely the words are used about identity, not science, or by Americans who don't use English.

2bazookas · 17/10/2021 16:28

A GC young woman, daughter of an old friend, is taking a degree at Bristol University and was required to write an essay in which issues of sex and gender came up. She pointed out to her tutor that the some of the definitions of sex and gender, and the way those words are used in the texts and notes she's been pointed to, are unscientific and inconsistent and based in ideology.

    Then that is exactly what she should discuss in her essay. 

At university, students are EXPECTED to think for themselves, challenge ideas, argue in tutorials etc. It's even fine to put across a criticism of Jane Austen. .. so long as its persuasive and sensible.

Swipe left for the next trending thread