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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Employee letters and emails boardline abusive, I suspect it's worse due to my sex. So what's my next move?

59 replies

Femalearchaeopteryx · 14/10/2021 23:12

I run my family manufacturing business its a male dominated industry and until recently no women had been in any roles except administration.

My Dad is semi retired but will never fully retire it's his lifes work. He has a very authoritative style and he's also tall so looks domineering as well.
I can be authoritative but I believe that a mix of leadership styles is best but I lean towards autocratic. I'm tallish but softly spoken and I look nice/kind so don't look scary (like most women really).

I came into the business having done leadership roles elsewhere. I quickly realised that it needed a massive overhaul as with many businesses that have grown bigger organically it had very little control, procedures or processes in place, there was & clearly still is a poor culture of petty bullying and blaming also an individual piece work bonus system that drove division rather than teamwork to get the product finished.

Luckily I managed to get us a huge government grant close to a million that is specifically for improving manufacturing via training/coaching/mentoring to help with improvements and change.

As part of the improvements we have an anonymous employee survey and suggestion box.

We have also just got rid of the bonus system with the new pay system everyone is earning more and their pay is more stable throughout the year.

Hopefully that has given you enough background.

So we have been getting letters from a group of employees that are increasingly aggressive and rude. Which started when we changed the pay system. Those we have people's signatures and after the last letter we will be discussing with each individual and launching an investigation as the letter overstepped, into abuse.

We have also been getting rude aggressive emails from our employee engagement I'm considering if I should publish extracts (obviously anonymised) in our employee newsletter and raise the abuse the leadership team have been receiving although I am not sure though if that just gives these kind of people more power.

Mostly of the 90 odd employees it will only be a few and I know who that are behaving in this way.

I am sure a lot of this is to do with my sex and a bit of a power play...put me in my place kind of thing...So I'd be interested to hear from other women what their response would be.

And before anyone complains I do know what I am doing and have lots of experience managing people, I'm just interested in other women's thoughts and insight as particularly MN are a knowledgeable and experienced lot.

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Femalearchaeopteryx · 16/10/2021 18:32

They sadly consume a wholly disproportionate amount of time/energy that could be much better focused elsewhere.
Yes this is very true what they don't know is the last month I've been preparing with the SLT for a big meeting that could land us a 10 year contract. Even though we have had the worst trading year we have also kept everyone employed this has been a conscious decision we couldn't make people redundant in this climate. Which probably wasn't the best business decision but is the right ethical one!

Yes we do have an appraisal system we are just doing the 2nd round now that everyone is back off of furlough.

It's interesting psychologically isn't it that (if) someone has been using other people's names to bolster their correspondence, the shear arrogance! I Imagine they are so absorbed in their anger the tone has been anger they are blind to what is and isn't acceptable.

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StartingAgain6369 · 16/10/2021 13:48

@Femalearchaeopteryx

"As part of the improvements we have an anonymous employee survey and suggestion box"

Have you introduced an appraisal system ?

BreadInCaptivity · 16/10/2021 13:37

If you can prove they have falsely used peoples signatures then yes - that's certainly a very serious issue that I think could be classed as gross misconduct (but I'd get legal advice just to make sure).

It's incredibly frustrating to encounter such individuals.

They sadly consume a wholly disproportionate amount of time/energy that could be much better focused elsewhere.

What I would add however, is that in my experience the vast majority of staff see them for what they are and as such when you do manage them out you're not left with another HR issue in soothing remaining staff - rather the overriding response is relief they they (as much as management) are not having to put up with their tedious negativity and energy sapping antics.

Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 19:56

Thank you Breadin wise words, I've already managed some out and others tripped themselves up by doing silly things that constituted gross misconduct. I don't want to count my chickens but sounds like some of this lot have done similar by falsely typing their colleges names on the most recent letter.

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Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 19:29

No I don't believe in authoritarian style either except perhaps emergency situations that require someone to be command and control.

Interestingly SoMany I was not the first or even third choice for my role that has always been reserved for the bearer's of the hallowed penis in my family. But none of my brother's have the capability, and when the chance came for me to take up a role in the business I thought I'd give it a go and then just took on more and more, which means that I've lived and worked in the real world.

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BreadInCaptivity · 15/10/2021 19:14

Hello OP,

I used to have a very senior role in a male dominated industry (just below Exec level).

I can categorically say that compared to my 5 male peers at that level I was the recipient of more abuse despite have a far more inclusive management style.

However, I'd also say in return this was reflective of a small number of employees and overall my division not only performed better (as demonstrated by empirical targets re: revenue/profit/client retention/growth etc) but was a more collaborative place to work, offered far more opportunities to advance (as proven by an employee survey) and was more diverse wrt race/sex/sexuality/age (as proven by HR stats) than any other.

I state this not to gain plaudits, but to demonstrate that irrespective of the positive changes in culture/working practices and opportunities you provide, there will always be a small cohort of men whose internal misogyny will rally against you, even when they are beneficiaries of the decisions you make.

In my experience it's best to simply come to terms with that fact. You will not change them or their behaviour and any effort to do so is at the expense of far more worthwhile headspace/time.

As other pp's have already suggested, my response would be to manage these people out of the business. They are rotten apples that spread their disease.

Be careful how you do this. Always by the book and demonstrate you are being fair and reasonable.

This involves ensuring you have excellent HR policies/employment contracts/Employee handbook etc and very clear expectations of appropriate conduct. They will fall foul of this because they simply cannot help themselves.

It will not be a short process. You'll have to go through verbal/written/final warnings etc and as such there will be a time investment and you'll have to be resolute in your plan.

In the meantime I would absolutely hold a group meeting.

Most people will not share their views. If you allow the opportunity for them to air their grievances in public they have the choice to do so and look foolish/selfish or stay silent and having missed the opportunity lose respect because they don't have the courage of their convictions.

Good luck Thanks

SoManyQuestionsHere · 15/10/2021 18:52

... and, by the way: this is coming from someone known as "a ball crusher". My actual boss' primary criticism of me is that I'm just nowhere near nice enough!

SoManyQuestionsHere · 15/10/2021 18:40

simitra, this is very "Machiavelli", as in: his time, and geared, specifically, his target audience (i.e. dynastic, political rulers - this was not when people used to elect those on a regular basis), indeed.

In your present-day workplaces, it really is a tad more complex than this: corporate executives are nothing like absolutist rulers. Our "citizens" (read: employees) have the option to walk out on us if we try to rule by fear tactics (and: I bloody hope they would - personally, I'm not that interested in having people in my workforce who haven't grasped this. I need for my employees to be reasonably intelligent in order for them to do their job well ...).

We don't have the same goals, either. Not entirely, anyway: assume that it's, literally, any manager's primary personal goal to stay in power and gain more of it (it typically isn't, and, yes, some psychopaths do exist, but let's assume this for the sake of the argument): family businesses like OP's perhaps excluded to some - but certainly not the entire - extent: we don't derive our legitimacy by having sprung out of the same womb which has, presumably, been impregnated by sperm from the right source. We are, fundamentally, more easily replacable than some 16th century duke. In fact, being replacable is part of what we get paid for to some degree.

The legal situation is also nowhere near the same: if your way of applying fear to achieve compliance in a workplace is not downright illegal, it may, at least, be unethical and poses a risk to the reputation of your firm. Every employee you have has the option to trash your leadership style on any internet forum out there - without you even being able to trace it back to them. You don't get to bully, intimidate and and discipline at will - not unless you have some serious moral compass issues and one hell of a lawyer to save your sorry arse once it inevitably all blows in your face! Epstein was bigger than almost all of us, and - though it lasted a long time - Epstein didn't get away with it. The "Lapdance Partner" guy? Sacked, publicly named and shamed, unemployable! Senior leadership at a certain global bank having private detectives go after another executive? It came to light, and it was a major scandal and not a good career move for any of the people involved.

Modern day leaders lead by - more or less - consent. There is always an element of hierarchy involved. My boss does get to discipline and possibly fire me (but I get to fire my boss, too, as in: I get to walk out on him). I do get to discipline and fire my employees - but they get to discipline me, too, by making my business fail. Sometimes, we have to be ruthless. At other times we have to be the bigger person and forgive despite not remotely wanting to. All part and parcel of the job! Our employees may not always like us to the extent that they'd invite us to their wedding. They don't have to. But we're not absolutist rulers, and if we lose their support, we're essentially done for because we won't reach our goals. Modern managers don't manage by the grace of God, as Machiavelli's princes did. We have bosses, too. And when we're at the very top, we are still accountable to markets.

And, I don't even need to go there. These are all reasons why, objectively speaking, it's a horrible idea to try and manage as per Machiavelli in 2021. I've one better argument:

Assume you had 100% certainty that you could get away with it, that your share price would sky-rocket, that your bonus would, too, and that Fortune magazine would give you a cover: would you want it? Would you really? Could you look at yourself in the mirror, knowing that the world is your oyster - at the "small" price that a ton of people are cowering in fear because of you? I know I couldn't! (Nor would I want to work for someone who regards Machiavelli as a management guide.)

And that's why we don't Machiavelli!

simitra · 15/10/2021 16:06

I have always gone with the advice of Machiavelli that its better for a leader to be feared rather than loved. If people think you are a soft touch they will attempt to walk all over you and constantly be attempting to test the boundaries. If you play hard ball they are more likely to keep their heads down and their mouths shut. I would begin the process of managing these people out of the organization.

Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 14:11

Yes Brefugee they do and I've made sure that not only the SLT but the junior leadership team have had coaching and we run regular sessions supporting them and discussing scenarios.

MrsOvertons thanks and yes I find it interesting and an amazing opportunity I actually really enjoy it.

News flash we've started an internal investigation initial discussions have found that some people's names have been added to letters without their consent 😲 actually I had my suspicions. I would personally be livid if someone did that to me.

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Brefugee · 15/10/2021 12:40

The grant I mentioned has given us access to top class support at a discounted rate the consultancy team we are working with are brilliant 100% behind us and used by big international companies.

do they also do change management type workshops? they can be really useful in terms of getting employees on board, and managing out those who don't fit the new culture.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/10/2021 12:33

What a good thread. Dismantling a toxic culture is so stressful and getting that balance right between allowing open discussion while minimising opportunities for community disruptors to sabotage is a challenge.
In my experience if the leadership is coherent, supportive and makes rational fair decisions it's much harder for the disruptors to have too much agency as their complaints don't match other staff's real experience. Keep the majority onside with ethical management while giving disrupters the choice to either join in with the collective efforts of the majority or accept that that this isn't where they want to work.

Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 09:51

Thanks Namenic yes I've decided publishing extracts is a bad idea and will give them power
Also yes the anonymous part it isn't really fair. I said it because I was thinking about it but then the more I thought and discussed it the more I thought no.

People are always the hardest part of any job anywhere!

Somany love your post I'm sure I'm probably equally responsible for the plague. Actually we have had that, this same group are complaining about things that the d leadership team did that no one in my team were involved in or sometimes even knew about.
Having chatted to some of the other women who are now in the leadership team with me we all recognise the tone and rage that is only reserved for women. It's weird as the men in the team haven't recognised that under current but then I suppose they've not been no the receiving end of multiple little interactions similar to this.

The grant I mentioned has given us access to top class support at a discounted rate the consultancy team we are working with are brilliant 100% behind us and used by big international companies.

We realised that we've not been spending enough te controlling this particular site as it's small and was making the right noises. All the other sites have had to have some level of line in the sand drawn with disciplinaries for poor behaviour, so we are just about to start the stamping down on this site today so I should get off MN and 🦕🦕🦕

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SoManyQuestionsHere · 15/10/2021 09:46

Addition, again, woman-specific: women, in general and specifically in male dominated industries, have a much, much harder time pulling off the "top-down, imposing, I'm the boss" style.

I know a few women - myself included to some extent - who fall into the "what she says goes" category. But what all have had in common is that the outward style has never been "I'm the boss, deal with it!".

Personally (and I'm not the greatest leader out there), I regard it as my greatest professional asset that I get my people to walk straight into the Mouth of Hell alongside me. But I manage that by inspiring loyalty and respect - which I get by showing them the same.

Some men may get away with a very authoritarian style - personally, I don't work for such bosses, men or women! But in my experience, it's almost impossible for women to pull it off. That's sexist, yes, but it's also reality! And I don't even actually see why women should aspire to the same piss-poor leadership styles that we hate in our own male superiors.

SoManyQuestionsHere · 15/10/2021 09:19

Another female leader (not in a family business, mind, complete opposite) in a male dominated world here:

Yes, women most certainly do get a harder time. My personal highlight was a (not anonymous at all) 5-page screed accusing me of, in summary, being the evilest human in the history of the species and surmising that I was probably personally responsible for the Black Death and Eve eating the apple, too. How come? I'd had the gall to let him know his arrongance and refusal to follow directions were not working for me. It was deeply personal and just screamed "narcissistic rage".

So, I feel you, OP.

Having said that: I strongly advise against any such measures as publishing excerpts, etc. It would read "flailing" and "petty" to me. Rise above it!

Similarly, I'm not a great fan of any (even generalised) "woe me - the management" style communication.

Just be clear, polite but no more than that, and very broad about it instead:

Personal attacks and bullying against any member of staff will be taken seriously, will be followed-up upon, and may lead to disciplinary measures up to and including dismissal. - doesn't matter if the victim is the CEO or the intern.

However, I do like the suggestion by a PP of actually agreeing to a group meeting - but including a wider group of management, too!

In general, have you considered getting a little outside support for yourself? There are some very decent consultancies out there that deal with organisational culture and change, specifically. And, no, I'm not talking BCG or even Deloitte - but lots of smaller, less expensive firms do some stellar work! Aside from the outside view and additional expertise that professional services firms typically sell, there's one nice side benefit: they make great shock absorbers and designated bad guys and, if used well, can hence also help protect internal relationships within a firm. Might be worth a shot to just get somebody in for a couple of weeks to help you out.

Namenic · 15/10/2021 07:37

I don’t think you should take action on an annonymous survey. The point of it is so that people can say the stuff they are feeling. I’d be pissed off if my employer said a survey was annonymous, then published extracts or contacted me personally about things (unless this was specified in the wording of the survey/feedback).

If you want more specific follow up, you can always say that people can arrange meetings with line manager for specific issues.

You don’t have to cave though. I would ignore and press forward with training/upskilling. Promote those who respond positively and become more productive. I’m really junior though, so don’t hold any managerial role.

Femalearchaeopteryx · 15/10/2021 07:18

Thank you TheCraic and yes you are right regards the grant it was me on my own at the time that did all the work and also all the work to get more. We've actually nearly used it all and done the changes it recommended. Apparently we are the only ones to have carried on during the pandemic out of 100 odd recipients.

Thank you justcameout wise words.

I've already got my big girl pants on had them on for some time so perhaps time to put my big girl safety shoes on and do some dinosaur like stomping after I've finished hording those rights Wink

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JustcameoutGC · 15/10/2021 06:26

I think i would meet them as a group actually, but with the whole leadership team by your side. And i would probably have all staff there, as sometimes having more moderate voices can be effective at tackling the hard liners. You might want to prep a few friendly faces to pipe up with their view points.

You then show an absolutely united front. If any of their complaints are reasonable then listen and respond, if its all nonsense then hold a fair but firm line. And then manage the shit out of them.

I would say that anonymous feedback wont be considered going forward as this as been abused by individuals posting offensive material. (I don't think you should publish the stuff you have received) All feedback must now be in name.

If you don't have one, implement a dignity and respect at work policy as the poster above said. This is how to make it crystal clear what constitutes unreasonable behaviour and how it will be sanctioned.

Good luck and kick ass!

TheCraicDealer · 15/10/2021 00:06

I think printing them would also galvanise these guys, like "fuck there's others that think the same as me FREEEEEDOM!, definitely doing the right thing here". It would only encourage them. If the change in bonus structure was fully above board and legal, then who the hell are they to demand a meeting? Publicise the positives of the change in the newsletter which will prevent a small number's discontent bleeding over into the rest of the workforce.

I would reiterate a company wide dignity and respect policy (maybe not the right term but you know what I mean), highlighting the penalties for abuse etc towards co-workers and staff. Then start coming down hard. If these guys are behaving like this to their superiors, imagine what they're like to peers or junior staff when there's no supervision? Your business has outgrown this culture, it's time to move on. Get an HR consultant in if you need to to guide this process.

They're already calling you a hard faced bitch behind your back, so might as well give them a reason for it.

(Also mentally take "luckily" off the start of that paragraph about the govt contract. It wasn't luck, it was hard work, preparation and enterprise that got you that.)

timeisnotaline · 15/10/2021 00:01

I would not hesitate to issue a formal warning and follow it up with bullying or abusive behaviour. Appreciate its anonymous here so harder, you may have to reset feedback so you can see who’s sent it, and explain you won’t publish or actually see anyones name but the abuse coming through it is in breach of contracts and you can’t let it continue. You will see no employee names unless the communication is in breach of employment, in which case you will be asking IT /whoever is in this position, for the name.

Femalearchaeopteryx · 14/10/2021 23:58

Yes Hot we always expected and want to be challenged we don't mind being criticised.

I/We don't let it get to us although we are still human.

What concerns me is the continued escalation and that it seems to be not stopping so normally do your survey have good/bad feedback then that is it but these seem to keep on going.

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Femalearchaeopteryx · 14/10/2021 23:53

@HollowTalk

Yes, a quick comparison of the pay over the years would probably give you some idea who is causing trouble.
Actually the biggest earner (who did know how to work the system) is well on board with what we've done and is pleased as thought the old system was unfair.

Which is funny as he knew every trick in the book to max his bonus!

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HotPenguin · 14/10/2021 23:51

When people respond to anonymous surveys I think they do sometimes express themselves in unprofessional ways, I wouldn't take it to heart. But if it's not anonymous I would take disciplinary action against them.

Femalearchaeopteryx · 14/10/2021 23:49

Yes no one is losing everyone is gaining. We were very careful of that as actually do want to be fair. Whilst also getting rid of a unfair difficult to control system.

We have already written to every employee with the details and with the letter writing lot we have done so on more than one occasion plus offered individual meetings so they cod compare to their previous salary confidentially.

Sadly some of this is legacy from the culture I inherited.

Oh funnily one of the things they are being most abusive about is that me or the factory director are refusing to have a group meeting with them to discuss their grievances, (we've offered them other avenues to express these). I know exactly what would happen if we did, the ring leaders would use it to show their power and we'd have loads of grand standing.

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HollowTalk · 14/10/2021 23:43

Yes, a quick comparison of the pay over the years would probably give you some idea who is causing trouble.