A thought about 'cis'

If you answer the question "are you a woman?" "yes", that's your gender identity.

But that’s not what you originally said. You posted a link to a paper that gives an accepted definition of gender identity. Now, you’ve changed your mind and given another definition. Why is that?

Of course you won’t engage. You have no rational answer because there isn’t one.

Nice try though!

[quote GreenAndPurplePeople]@DadJoke

I read the paper. I have a question.
On page 1, it states a definition of gender identity as

a person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteris- tics” (American Psychological Association 2015).

On page 2 it then says Every person has a gender identity.

How can this be true? I certainly don’t have a “deeply felt sense” of being anything, so therefore I can’t have a gender identity. Yet it claims everyone must have one.

It’s contradictory. Can you please explain how this works?[/quote]
If you answer the question "are you a woman?" "yes", that's your gender identity. What you attribute that to is unimportant - your body, your mind, it makes no difference. I'm really not sure why you are asking me something so basic - you are clearly capable of looking it up. You can say "I don't have a feeling of being attracted to a particular gender" - that wouldn't mean you didn't have a sexuality.

Gender identity is a very, very straightforward and almost universally recognised concept in psychology. It seems bizarre to me that you have an almost religious resistance to the idea of it. Why would that be?

@AnyOldPrion it's one thing to say you disagree, it's quite another to call me a liar, so I don't see any point in engaging with you.

You didn’t answer my question though. You confirmed that there is a connection between transmen and women (all born female, both subsets of women).

Now tell me the similarities between women and men who claim they are women. We’re not talking souls here, or equally unproven concepts such as “gender identity” which most women don’t have. Tell me what characteristics links those two groups which you claim belong together.

@DadJoke

I read the paper. I have a question.
On page 1, it states a definition of gender identity as

a person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteris- tics” (American Psychological Association 2015).

On page 2 it then says Every person has a gender identity.

How can this be true? I certainly don’t have a “deeply felt sense” of being anything, so therefore I can’t have a gender identity. Yet it claims everyone must have one.

It’s contradictory. Can you please explain how this works?

Reminds me of the linguistic abomination, "apple cider."

Cider is by definition made from apples. Pears make perry, not 'pear cider' which is as much of a thing as orange lemonade.

Actually just read your other post, and yes I would have written mine.

Sorry , an extra not crept into the mushroom subset , should be “but not that men and women are subsets of mushrooms.”

So by your logic black means not white ? And white means not black?

And trans means not woman?

Can you see that saying something is a subset of something it isn’t or saying that two things that are different are actually the same is illogical and irrational. You can say men and women are subsets of human beings, but not that men and women are not subsets of mushrooms. You also can’t say that men are a subset of women. And ditto. Because they aren’t.

You can’t turn something into something it’s not just by giving it another name, and in addition you can’t make something into something it wants to be by giving the something it wants to be another name. Things are what they are.

Some transwomen already identify as 'cis' because anything other than IDENTICAL TO WOMAN = triggering for them.

Which is interesting because they usually use cis as a slur too...

¯\(ツ)/¯

*No, trans men and cis women are not subsets of women

I mean trans men are not a subset of women, sorry. Oh to be able to edit!

No, trans men and cis women are not subsets of women.

Trans means your gender identity does not align with your sex assigned at birth, cis means it does. Trans men and cis women have in common that were both assigned female at birth, so that's why people include trans men when discussing cervices or periods.

Trans men are not "claming they are men," any more than gay people are "claiming that they are gay." Sexuality and gender identity are both innate and heritable to about the same extent.

Except in gc and socially conservative circles, gender identity isn't disputed any more than sexuality is.

Here's a good place to start.

www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/2018-polderman.pdf

If a trans woman is a woman, full stop no debate, then the word trans is irrelevant.

If a woman is a cis-woman, and a trans woman is a woman, then a trans woman is a cis woman is a woman is a woman.

If A = B and if B = C then A = C (by simple logic maths).

Cis women are women. Trans women are women.

Cis woman (A) = C.
Trans woman (B) = C.

A+B = C.

The category of 'women' isn't solely cis women, it's all women.

Trans women and cis women are subsets of the class women. Of course cis women and trans women are different, or there would be no need to have the terms cisgender and transgender.

Different is certainly true, but in what ways are they the same? Can you explain what similarities there are between women and men who claim they are women that makes those men actually women in your head?

Because to use your terminology, transmen and “cis”women are the two subsets of women. What they have in common is both are female. Your suggestion doesn’t make logical sense to me, so please do explain the common features.

Trans women and cis women are subsets of the class women. Of course cis women and trans women are different, or there would be no need to have the terms cisgender and transgender.

If it's helps, think of cis simply meaning "not trans." I don't think that conflicts with gc beliefs.

@Babdoc
Yes, those that believe
Transwomen are women true, assert that transwomen are a subset of women in general.

And I agree with OP, the invention of “cis” to denote biological women was motivated not just by wanting to distinguish between biological women and trans women but to place trans women in an “oppressed” status along with disabled women, BAME women, gay women, etc.

Yep, so much more woke and acceptable to say “I hate cis women” than “I hate women” even though it means the same thing.

@LaetitiaASD was saying that if you believe
Trans women are women. True and
Cis women are women. True then you must believe that
Trans women are cis women. True

When this is a fallacy of her logic. It’s not logical at all to apply the if A=C and B=C then A=C deduction when dealing with propositional logic.

You can use any definition you want for woman.

My point is that belief in
Trans women are women. True, does not necessarily mean that they also believe that cis women are transwomen. True.

Which is what @LaetitiaASD* was proposing, that if you believe in one, you must believe in the other statement.

Yes, agreed.

Trans women are women. True
Cis women are women. True
Trans women are cis women. False

What definition of 'woman' is being used here?

Of course,
Somd people believe
Trans women are women. True

But other people believe
Trans women are women. False.

My point is that belief in
Trans women are women. True, does not necessarily mean that they also believe that cis women are transwomen. True.

Which is what @LaetitiaASD was proposing, that if you believe in one, you must believe in the other statement.

Laetitia
It is not always the case that if A= B and B=C, then A=C
And we are dealing with truth values in propositional logic, not algebraic mathematics.

Another example:

Trans women are women. True
Cis women are women. True
Trans women are cis women. False

Similar to how
Apples are fruit. True
Pears are fruit. True
Apples are Pears. False