Why single sex spaces

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

Could you imagine the amount of consensual sexual activity that would take place if mixed sex facilities were the norm?

I suspect most normal (ie non-criminal) men are more comfortable in single sex spaces too. They know the accepted codes of behaviour.

Oh yes, the Scandinavian unisex utopias:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276075-Sweden-historical-open-air-bath-removes-sex-barriers-for-queer-day-women-driven-home-by-ogling-men

Same when I was in Finland - very definitely NOT mixed sex in saunas.

And I've never seen a mixed-sex toilet. I hear a lot about them appearing in England, but I can't imagine Finns going for this. Unisex single-occupancy room, at most.

Although they do seem to have a bad habit of importing bad ideas from the UK and America... I understand they're currently copying some stuff in the education system(!). Which doesn't seem logical seeing as Finland is topping the charts...

That actually is a universal pattern - someone in country X trying to justify their policy without evidence, but with a (possibly false or misleading) claim that some other country is doing it, and an evidence-free claim that it works great there.

This goes back decades or centuries - con-men or advertisers touting something as being all the rage in Paris or whatever...

Nordic countries being touted as a mixed-sex nude hippy commune is like that. There's a grain of truth, but only a grain.

It seems so odd to think of single-sex spaces in terms of whether or not you feel 'comfortable' getting naked in front of someone of the opposite sex. I don't feel uncomfortable with that at all, but single-sex spaces exist for an entirely different reason. They exist because male people are massively more likely than women to sexually attack, harrass, assault , and because their targets are usually women, and because the offending profile of male bodies has f-all to do with their gender identity.

The misperception of the concerns as being about 'comfort' rather than safety feels like it comes from a position of privilege, as if the issue only concerned safe, well-designed and monitored spaces , rather than, for example, lonely public toilets in unlit, underpoliced streets, or women's prisons, where women are so profoundly disrespected that they can be left to give birth alone and watch their baby die.

I'm always bemused by these tales of Scandinavian unisex utopias.

Largely because they're untrue, afaict. (Speaking from Finnish experience.) Nudity, particularly in saunas, is certainly far more common.

But mixed-sex in that situation is rare. It can happen in close families + friends, yes. Basically wouldn't happen in public, or at workplaces. Those would be single-sex.

To suggest that mixed-sex nudity is the norm is false. It might be more common absolutely, yes - due to the increased nudity generally - but still not the norm.

And to suggest that even that more-mixed-nudity situation would be remotely the same as there being NO single-sex facilities is a total nonsequitur. The total elimination of single-sex options is the problem here. Not the existence of mixed-sex options.

The extra nudity at events actually means a bit more thought needs to be applied to sex separation - eg a work event might need to allow for separate female + male sauna time. Men stock up with beer from the beer fridge in the sauna changing room before the women's turn.... (Yes, offices can have a sauna, but I can't imagine a mixed-sex work sauna).

I don't believe OP is actually a woman or you'd know the answer to this question

Why do women go to the toilet in groups? It's a joke, right? If you think it's a gentle tease about how we cannot stop chatting even long enough to go to the loo then think again:

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation?t=1634191971887

"There has been a huge change in our lives. Before, the men would follow us, wait for us to sit in the field and watch. Now, thanks to Mr. Pathak, we have a lavatory at home." Laxmi says, "We don't need to step out, and we feel better. Our dignity which is an ornament for us — is now safe."

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
Stop gaslighting

Not for but against trans women

?? Could you elaborate ?

**Cascascascas

@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.**

No counselling needed. All that anyone needs in order to know the answer to the OP's question, is an ability to read crime statistics etc. , as they quite clearly show why women need female only spaces . However, if you have evidence that proves that male humans of all gender identities are not statistically dangerous to women, I would be delighted to read it.

Personally I would never get naked in front of anyone. I refuse to use changing rooms with no cubicles but that's just me.

If I didn't have such hang ups there is no way I would want to have share with men while getting dressed. It's very rare women commit sexual offences and that's why.

Last time I was in Iceland, there were separate naked showers for men and women.

Maybe friends and family are happy to get naked in saunas and lagoons together but there were definitely sex-segregated spaces where I visited. Also separate male and female toilets in Sweden. I'm always bemused by these tales of Scandinavian unisex utopias.

TW are men otherwise what are they transitioning from?

But you know this

@PickAChew

Not for but against trans women

Come on OP!

Let's hear your thoughts!?

Never coming back is really annoying.

Esp in threads in feminism which attract posters who are on a mission to stamp out 'misandry'...

Terry I'm not sure.

Stats are v dodgy on sex offences. Yes different countries definitely have different levels. I'm not sure that it's at all rosy in some though. And if so I doubt mixed sex naked is a reason for less assaults, but a consequence iyswim.

Also and no I don't know everything so interested to hear any other countries! Love getting new info!

The ones I know-

Austria. In general social standards are vocally policed by the general population.

Eg
In a restaurant a woman in a couple got drunk. Quietly at table. When stood up she could barely stand) walk.
Atmosphere went v cold. Everyone watching disapprovingly. As her OH helped her out, woman stood up and did loud denunciation of her behaviour as she went past. No one batted an eyelid.

Just an example.

Yes mixed sauna. However. I have no doubt that toe out of line would be immediately reacted to by all in vicinity.

Finland. Sauna huge cultural big deal. I know many have at home. And mixed sex = mum dad kids granny uncle etc. I know as my friend was girlfriend (now married) to a Finn. And the first bunch of times visiting. involved sharing family norms. Including naked sauna with boyfriend, his sister and brother, parents, an aunt and granny.

I think I looked at public sauna and there are norms etc... To do anything outside norm would be same sort of thing as going to church, mooning the congregation and throwing paint over the vicar. Iyswim. Just. Unimaginable.

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
What for?

If I was attacked by a woman I'd have more chance of fighting back but the clincher for me is i can't be impregnated by a woman. I do not want to be naked/semi naked around strange men

@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.

I'm not comfortable getting more naked with more men in the misogynistic world I live in. No saunas with men thanks!

OP what are your thoughts so far?

Made any sense/ prompted more questions?

Sorry to ask but so many posters never come back these days and it would be great to know you are going to stay involved!

Huh?

Why is it positive to get people in general more comfortable with being naked in front of anyone?

Can you think of no reasons at all why single sex spaces exist? For men or women?