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Original poster

Why single sex spaces

235 replies

DorsVenabili · 13/10/2021 23:11

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

OP posts:
Gncq · 14/10/2021 12:59

*but in "primitive" societies isn't nudity more commonplace, suggesting it's more about what you are used to" yeah sure and in primitive societies the women were just whacked over the head and dragged off.
We evolved.

JellySaurus · 14/10/2021 12:58

I'm sorry that for some trans women may be also at risk from male sexual violence and I understand why they would want to take advantage of women's safe spaces.

It is not women's job to solve make violence. All it takes to prevent rape is for men to choose not to rape.

Gncq · 14/10/2021 12:57

@midgedude

I feel the whole need for single sex spaces is rooted in mysogeny,

If women didn't suffer sexual abuse and violence , if men didn't ogle and banter , if a body was just a body and nothing to get excited about then the need would be much reduced

Single sex sport isn't "rooted in misogyny". Nor are women only maternity units. They're just common sense. Single sex prisons aren't there (I should really say weren't there ☹️) because of misogyny but safety, and avoiding pregnancies, bringing unwanted babies into the prison population. I'd say the ideology responsible for mixing up the sexes in prison is rooted in misogyny, in a total disregard for women's safety and a disregard for future unwanted babies to top it off.
TheWeeDonkey · 14/10/2021 12:47

Did OP ever come back? 🎣

DadDadDad · 14/10/2021 10:48

if the OP is really interested in the question of 'do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society', then it might be worth asking men.

Not sure if you want to hear a man's thoughts, but as you've asked...

I know personally in the context of something like changing rooms, I would only feel comfortable undressing in front of other males. I guess I would feel very self-conscious if there was a woman watching me naked. I would worry that I would causing them embarrassment or discomfort, although I don't suppose I would feel threatened in the same way that I appreciate women feel if the position is reversed.

I can't believe it's nature - I'm not an evolutionary psychologist or anthropologist, but in "primitive" societies isn't nudity more commonplace, suggesting it's more about what you are used to? At school, I would have got changed in male changing rooms (and even then, I would have been self-conscious about being naked in front of others - and some would have been more or less self-conscious than me), and got used to it as no big deal - no-one's that interested in looking at my body!

ErrolTheDragon · 14/10/2021 10:32

There are so many blatantly obvious reasons why women want and need single sex spaces, that if the OP is really interested in the question of 'do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society', then it might be worth asking men. Because as far as I'm aware they also often want male only spaces too. Mens loos are hardly ever the ones labelled as 'gender neutral', and I seem to remember one of the first well publicised trans discrimination cases involving changing rooms was a TM being refused access to a male gym. (I can't remember the outcome).

MarshaBradyo · 14/10/2021 10:22

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
Why would you leap to that? Seems odd

Namenic · 14/10/2021 10:21

But I would be strongly in favour of more 3rd space full floor to ceiling toilets with washbasin - for several reasons, including families with older children, people who don’t wish to use single sex and are not eligible for disabled toilets

Namenic · 14/10/2021 10:19

I suspect it might be easier to prosecute voyeurs if they were found in opposite sex toilets - eg recorded on cctv that they entered. What reason would they have for going in? If it was mixed sex, things would be a bit harder?

Of course it doesn’t stop same sex voyeurs. But this is a lower percentage of the population, and just because you can’t stop everything, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do things to reduce risk.

Lovelyricepudding · 14/10/2021 09:52

It is not just about sexual assault or male gaze, it is also about power. Patriarchy, strength and reproductive roles give men power over women both at the societal level but also at a personal level. It is not risk of assault that means there are less women in positions of power/leadership/authority. If changing rooms are mixed sex then men have control, women's needs are ignored. Women only groups give women a voice they don't get in mixed sex groups. It gives us representation. Just look at what happened when men (transwomen) entered that Irish book group discussing 'Invisible Women' - women's needs were made invisible again.

Shedbuilder · 14/10/2021 09:22

Flashback, you beat me to the male gaze. The assessing look and then the furtive peering and accidental towel drop giving an excuse to flash you in a 'I'm awfully sorry, I just dropped my towel, I didn't intentionally expose myself' way.

Most decent men, asked if they'd like to share a changing room with women would say no, for fear of an accidental towel drop or for fear that they might offend a woman by being seen to look at her when she's naked.

We can't tell the decent men from the porn addicts/ men who like hidden camera scenarios/ rapists/ idiots by sight, so we keep them all out for the safety, security and well-being of all women. It would be reckless and dangerous to do otherwise.

jellyfrizz · 14/10/2021 09:14

@midgedude

I feel the whole need for single sex spaces is rooted in mysogeny,

If women didn't suffer sexual abuse and violence , if men didn't ogle and banter , if a body was just a body and nothing to get excited about then the need would be much reduced

Yes!

Although there are also some spaces where physical needs come into play e.g. females having to sit down to wee, need facilities to deal with periods..

GoldenBlue · 14/10/2021 09:13

When in a vulnerable situation such as a state of undress, asleep, or inability to escape then I want women to have sex separated spaces to keep them safe.

Whilst it's not all men, it is generally males that are a greater risk to women, particularly for sexual abuse and associated violence

Prisons, mental health facilities, hospital wards, dormitories, showers should all be sex segregated to protect women.

I'm sorry that for some trans women may be also at risk from male sexual violence and I understand why they would want to take advantage of women's safe spaces. However we should be campaigning to provide them their own safe spaces rather than open the door for people with male anatomy being let into women's safe spaces.

It is not about sexuality, I've no issue with sharing with lesbians and bisexuals. I'm not afraid that someone might fancy me or enjoy seeing me naked. I'm afraid that males may harm me.

flashbac · 14/10/2021 09:05

Simple answer? The MALE GAZE. I want respite from it. I don't want to suffer it in the changing room, in the breastfeeding support group, in the swimming pool.

Dinosauria · 14/10/2021 08:58

@Gosports

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

I would use trains in the UK if there was women only carriages, sex attacks on the railways in the UK is depressingly common. The religious reason for moving I'd not comparable
Dinosauria · 14/10/2021 08:49

@Hathertonhariden

Victims of male violence and women of faith both need space away from men when in a state of undress. Failure to provide single sex spaces prevents these women from living a full life.
And people who are not victims if male violence and wish to stay that way.
Signalbox · 14/10/2021 08:48

In the 80s (and perhaps still now) Mexico City had women-only train carriages that women could choose to use. I didn't really understand it until I felt some guy's erection rammed against me in a mixed carriage.

Yes it only takes one sexual assault before you wish you had the option of a single sex service. I stopped using a specific GWR service because there was so much bad male behaviour going on. Although a single sex carriage wouldn’t have helped on that service because it would have been empty (so not safe at all) as there were very few single women on the train. What would have helped is more guards and working cctv for when things go wrong.

JSL52 · 14/10/2021 08:47

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
No this is exactly why we need single sex spaces. She's spot on.

midgedude · 14/10/2021 08:42

I feel the whole need for single sex spaces is rooted in mysogeny,

If women didn't suffer sexual abuse and violence , if men didn't ogle and banter , if a body was just a body and nothing to get excited about then the need would be much reduced

NecessaryScene · 14/10/2021 08:39

I suppose what I’m trying to work out is that I feel women should be safe in a mixed carriage and not feel we need a single sex space. I also feel we should be safe in toilets and yet I DO feel
we need that space to be single sex.

There are trade-offs in privacy here.

In an extremely public space, with lots of people, a woman is probably safe.

If a woman wants some privacy, then that privacy comes at a safety cost - fewer eyes on potential wrongdoers.

So more private spaces, or spaces that are likely to be less populated, where a woman might find herself alone with a man, need more care.

Exactly where a given society feels the need to draw the line on what is single sex and what isn't is a reflection on the overall safety of that society. Women-only train carriages suggest something of a problem with public behaviour - what people feel they can get away with.

Gosports · 14/10/2021 08:28

Yes, I can see how that could make you want to use a female carriage! I suppose what I’m trying to work out is that I feel women should be safe in a mixed carriage and not feel we need a single sex space. I also feel we should be safe in toilets and yet I DO feel
we need that space to be single sex. And as you point out - men can have erections in both.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 14/10/2021 08:27

@Gosports

I am fiercely GC, and pro single sex spaces, but when travelling in Asia (can’t remember where - maybe Malaysia) we came across trains where there were carriages just for women. On the same trip, a Muslim man made his wife switch places so she didn’t have to sit next to my husband.

I find it difficult reconciling my reactions to these things - on the one hand, I believe 100% that women should have our own toilets/prisons etc, but I don’t feel we should have to have our own train carriages. I appreciate no one is getting naked in a train carriage, but it just seems unnecessary. Just as a woman shouldn’t feel threatened by sitting next to an unknown male on a plane.

There’s a very simple distinction here though. The male husband was controlling his wife. It was nothing to do with her safety or her choices. It was the husband’s feelings of ownership.
Random789 · 14/10/2021 08:21

In the 80s (and perhaps still now) Mexico City had women-only train carriages that women could choose to use. I didn't really understand it until I felt some guy's erection rammed against me in a mixed carriage.

JellySaurus · 14/10/2021 08:05

You're confusing another patriarchal religious control with women's safety.

I say ' another' because trans ideology is another patriarchal neo-religion which aims to control women men.