Why single sex spaces

'We live in a society where clothing is normal in large part because of climate. So our sense of what is private about our bodies is different than it would be if we lived in the Amazon jungle. It shapes our sexual response and our feelings of vulnerability, of dignity.'

The level of coverage for women and girls. Is often/ usually decided by men though. Religious men, capitalist men, men in power etc etc. When we fight against what we are supposed to wear it can take ages to get any change. And it is easily reversed.

Cartoon about France swimwear law. Religious Muslim man one side. Woman in middle. Man other side is... Standard man in France/ govt.

One man covers her with burqa. Other pulls it off underwear. Back and forth.

Impactful way to make the point.

Yes agreed.

Different modes of dress and how much coverage in what circs are societal, varying around the world and over time, and still different around the world.

Along with practical considerations as you mentioned eg climate.

All fine.

I don't understand how differing norms maps to sex offences though? From the creepy to the extreme. The dynamic being overwhelming males doing the things to women and girls. And boys. And men.

?

Has OP been back? Earlier I don't think had.

Another thread where. OP why is this a problem? What about blah. And never comes back to engage with comments or make their case.

And leaves mainly women to think and post and discuss. Etc. Consider.

And every time. Take that effort to reply to an OP who just wanted to do. Whatever. And we all go back and forth considering responses to OPs like.

Why on earth do we feel extremely uncomfortable being naked in front of male strangers. How can we change this.

I mean. For crying out loud.

There is an element about this that is not just about safety but also dignity, and that depends in part of cultural norms. Western society since the 1960s has been very interested in devaluing cultural norms as arbitrary and restrictive, but I would say that misses the point. Many are not in fact arbitrary in their entirety, but even when that is an element, that doesn't mean there is not a good reason for the construct to exist. Driving on the left side of the road is arbitrary too, but it's important in order to structure the flow of traffic.

We live in a society where clothing is normal in large part because of climate. So our sense of what is private about our bodies is different than it would be if we lived in the Amazon jungle. It shapes our sexual response and our feelings of vulnerability, of dignity.

Our environment has driven culture in this. That's ok and actually, it's true everywhere.

To those who have misunderstood my posts, when I refer to those seeking validation, I am referring to male bodied people with the condition we are not allowed to name.

I am not in any way suggesting there is anything wrong with women wanting separate female only spaces or anything right with men wishing to colonise them.

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
What’s with the haiku?

There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.

Maybe because the vast majority of people know and it goes without saying?

My point to those seeking validation is that there really isn't anything for them to see.

Walking through the door marked 'Women' and being in there with women is the validation, women feeling uncomfortable or worse is just an added bonus.

Toilets are a perfectly good place for women to retain their need for female only spaces.

My point to those seeking validation is that there really isn't anything for them to see.

@Cuck00soup I agree toilets is not the strongest scenario to argue to argue as it doesn't have as many complexities as showers, prisons, refuges etc. But it's still an important argument to have as it impacts on our daughters in schools before they've had a chance to learn boundaries and safety and it normalises penises in women's spaces

There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.

Perhaps you missed the thread about a 14 year old girl being raped by a skirt wearing 15 year old male in the female toilets at her school. Or the Wi Spa threads, or the JY "let me help you with your tampon" threads. Or for that matter any of the other threads detailing sexual violence perpetrated by males no matter how they identify. Have a look at Women Are Human or any newspaper any day of the week.

Is this still the feminist section?

Let me tell you something about women's toilets.

We don't get naked in front of anyone.

We go in a cubicle, attend to our needs, wash our hands and leave.

Not wanting to share facilities with males is about our personal safety, not about who sees us naked.

What you all said but I also think it's about boundaries. Switching from single-sex to mixed-sex changing rooms means erasing a boundary and thus decreasing women's (and girls') ability to control access to their naked bodies. The underlying logic is that we shouldn't have the right to limit the access of male-bodied people to our unclothed bodies. Why should I be required to allow males to see me naked if I want to go to the pool, buy clothing at a store, etc? Why can't I have that boundary? Why is it important to other people that I don't have that boundary?

Absolutely, GoldenBlue. Some things are worth repeating

Why have I got to justify why I want and need a female only single sex space and/or service?

Interesting isn’t it that women are forced to justify why they need female only spaces, get called bigots and worse for wanting/ needing them
Yet males who want access to them aren’t forced to explain why…

Why have I got to justify why I want and need a female only single sex space and/or service?

I want single sex spaces and services to be just that, single sex, the end. I don't consent to any men being in there whatever they feel internally, however they are dressed, whatever they've done or not done to their bodies.

If there are men out there who don't want to use the single sex spaces and services provided for them, tough, their problem to sort out and they don't sort it out by deciding that they can come into female single sex spaces and services, assuming consent or steamrollering over objections. Either they use the spaces and services provided for their sex or lobby for a separate space and service that meets their needs, female single sex spaces and services are not theirs to take or demand access to.

Prisons, refuges, rape crisis centres, hospital wards, elderly care, security staff, sports - it's not just about changing rooms. 'Space' means a lot more.

Which means a gay man can judge a woman’s body far more detrimentally and we still need to be protected

It isn't sexuality, but sexuality plus power, in the same way racism is prejudice plus power, rather than being equal in all directions. Lesbians don't have the power men have or conditioning to take what they want.

Men feel and behave (and are told by society) that they have an entitlement to female bodies, that our bodies are theirs to judge and they know they can easily over power us.

When our local high school made the toilets unisex, it was the boys mocking any girl who "pissed like a horse" while they got away with pissing like a faulty, unhygienic sprinklers. That is a power dynamic, the girls don't have the same power to mock actually gross behaviours, while the boys set the standard for female bodily functions and girls with healthy strong pelvic floors stop drinking to avoid the toilets.

There are also a number of patriarchal religions, telling women the onus is on them to stop their bodies being seen. This hasn't completely gone from any society, even non religious women know they'll be held responsible for their own vulnerabilities to assault.

It will be a long time before we reset that as society, and doing away with safe places will just set that back, it erodes boundaries.

I don't think complete nudity at all times has ever been usual in any society.

Even in tropical places at least loincloths or skirts / kilts were worn, traditionally. I think the smallest covering is the penis sheath such as worn by some tribes in Papua New Guinea.

Women are safer in single sex facilities.
That's about it really.
Even 'nice' men lech at naked women.
The all women train carriage is an admittance that the behaviour of some men cannot be managed or mitigated.
That's not changing any time soon. If ever.
Prosecution, CCTV are all quite pointless as it still requires a woman to be hurt to enable a man to be punished for hurting her. I'd rather we make it harder for women to be hurt in the first place.
My comfort if you want to call it that, comes from feeling safer. I don't find other women threatening. I am wary of strange men. I'm not a misandrist but I have been assaulted, intimidated and made to feel uncomfortable around men. I know how some men view women. I don't want to be fodder for their nasty thoughts and actions.

Second, my understanding is that we haven't evolved, in the biological sense: there hasn't been enough time for our brains to have changed from our Stone Age ancestors. But I suppose we can say social conventions have evolved, so that comes back to nurture - many of us are raised in a way that nudity in front of the other sex is not something we are used to.

Unisex changing room at Haven caravan park. Fat middle aged women takes her 4 year old DD into the changing cubicle. Dirty bastard peeks his head over the top of the cubicle to watch who getting changed? Fat middle aged woman or 4 year old girl?

Opportunity, vulnerability and dirty bastard = crime of voyeurism

I will fight for single sexed spaces for my DD, for me and for women.

in primitive societies the women were just whacked over the head and dragged off.

A lot of these loonies live in a weird reality bubble where they genuinely think "rape" is a colonial concept and there was no violence against women in indigenous cultures until the evil Europeans arrived.

There is a point in that shame can be problematic in itself, but what happens in the absence of shame could be even more problematic.

Sometimes taboos or cultural norms are actually serving a purpose. Something being "normative" does not mean that tearing it up will improve things.

^ sorry about the bold fail