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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why single sex spaces

235 replies

DorsVenabili · 13/10/2021 23:11

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 18/10/2021 00:35

@KayKayWat

Eg In a restaurant a woman in a couple got drunk. Quietly at table. When stood up she could barely stand) walk. Atmosphere went v cold. Everyone watching disapprovingly. As her OH helped her out, woman stood up and did loud denunciation of her behaviour as she went past. No one batted an eyelid.

I'd have told that interfering Karen to get tae fuck!

Interesting response

VERY interesting.

As a VISITOR in a different country with it's own culture, standards of behaviour, norms.

You would STAND UP and tell the woman who berated the drunk one.

To GET TO FUCK. And you'd call her a Karen???!!!

Blimey. That's. Incredibly arrogant!

I mentioned it was abroad I'm sure.

Do you speak a lot of languages? This was in Austria. Not a language widely studied I don't think? Do you have German? It's quite different but probably get by...

I'm hazarding a guess you're not fluent in Austrian.

So in a different country. With a woman berating another for being drunk in Austrian. You would stand up (pretty posh hotel restaurant) and tell her (in English?) to get to fuck. And call her a Karen. Which might well mean nothing to her.

That's a really interesting post. Thank you.

NiceGerbil · 18/10/2021 00:26

We had this the other day.

Points are that-

Transmen are not going on about this. They are not insisting to go xyz and etc. I mean there may be but so I've not heard. Transmen vigorously arguing to be in bogs changing labelled men or women. I remember a transboy in USA come to think of it...

This is about males and women's spaces. Let's be straightforward. Transmen are only ever brought up by anyone arguing for males to come in, as a gotcha.

Additionally.

Transmen grew up as girls, likely women for a time. As such they understand a load of stuff at a fundamental level.
IMO transmen who pass or have characteristics that they know will make women and girls think... Bloke. Then they are very unlikely to want to upset/ scare / piss off by using female facilities.
That's an assumption but... I think a pretty fair one.

Things transmen will have experienced before transition (pretty much certainly)

  • Having inadequate facilities. Having to queue for ages etc.
  • Been in a situation in toilets/ changing etc where there was something to do with a man/ men/ boy/ boys that set off the radars of women/ girls there. So many different examples.
  • Very possibly knew a woman well who did a certain amount of planning around toilet availability. Things like. Pregnancy, post childbirth, getting towards elderly. All things not uncommon to mean a short or long term loss of bladder control to a greater or lesser extent.

And big point is. I can't imagine a transman would WANT to use the ladies. Undermines something of extreme importance to their sense of self.

My point is that transmen will likely to take into account how well they pass, how likely they are to cause alarm, if they are prepared to use ladies.

And take the option that is best all round even if it means checking for gender neutral etc options available where going.

And this is all by the bye as TM are not the ones making the noise, men aren't saying anything on the topic etc.

They are vanishingly unlikely to be pervy creeps and / or a physical risk to either sex.

So. Pointless conversation.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/10/2021 00:09

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

Of course a tiny number of women pose a risk to other women. But statistically we are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked by a man than a woman.

We are also overwhelmingly, when attacked by another woman, less likely to be sexually assaulted.

Sexual assault is easier in private / secluded spaces therefore more likely in a bathroom than in the open.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue with those facts.

KayKayWat · 18/10/2021 00:01

Eg
In a restaurant a woman in a couple got drunk. Quietly at table. When stood up she could barely stand) walk.
Atmosphere went v cold. Everyone watching disapprovingly. As her OH helped her out, woman stood up and did loud denunciation of her behaviour as she went past. No one batted an eyelid.

I'd have told that interfering Karen to get tae fuck!

334bu · 17/10/2021 23:58

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

Of course some women pose a risk to others but statistically compared to males of all gender identities, the risk is very small. Almost all sex offenders are male with males who identify as women just as likely to offend as any other male. The same is true of offenders who commit violent crimes, although here the numbers of women offenders is higher but still very few compared to male offenders.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 17/10/2021 23:57

Women committing sex crimes is rare. And in the unlikely event a woman tried to sexually assault me in a changing room or wherever, I think I'd have a much better chance at fighting her off than I would if it was a man.

This, really.

Why are transmen afraid to use the male toilets? Because biological men are in there.

Why are women afraid to use toilets if trans women are in there? Because biological me are in there.

The problem? Women? Nope, biological males.

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 23:50

@ChattyLion
No.

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

People don’t tend to pass as well as they think they do.

But isn't easier for a man to pass as as a trans man (i.e. a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man) than a trans woman? And they only have to pass well enough that they don't look so obviously not a trans man that they are immediately reported.

I’m not sure who you mean by ‘trans’ and that’s not a term I’d use but, still no. All women regardless of any gender identity they have or of none, are welcome to female single sex facilities. Because they’re still women.

Trans are non cis gendered.
Some (cis) women disagree with your position. Are they allowed to veto, or not?

RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 21:37

All women regardless of any gender identity they have or of none, are welcome to female single sex facilities

No. Not for me. Not trans men on hormones with beards and deep voices. No. I don't think that is settled at all.

ChattyLion · 17/10/2021 21:06

Isn't there a risk posed by women who are taking male hormones (as these increase strength and aggression) in female only spaces?

No.

Also, if women identifying as men still use the female only spaces, that is obviously fine for those cases. But as some of these women may look like men, won't this raise the possibility that some men will use these facilities, claiming that they are women (trans men)?

People don’t tend to pass as well as they think they do. Some men will take any opportunity and go to great lengths to get into the women’s toilets though. Which is why women’s toilets need to remain single sex.

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?

I’m not sure who you mean by ‘trans’ and that’s not a term I’d use but, still no. All women regardless of any gender identity they have or of none, are welcome to female single sex facilities. Because they’re still women. No men are welcome in there, however they may identify or don’t. Because they’re still men.

RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 19:40

@JellySaurus

When you make choices sometimes some doors get closed to you I'm afraid.

Blimey! You're not expecting adult behaviour are you?

Travel in hope...
RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 19:39

I also think Elliot Page is a really really bad example as a gotcha. Because I can't see anyone looking at Elliot (who is, what 5'2"/5'3"? 7 stone sopping wet?) and questioning why that person is in the women's toilets.

JellySaurus · 17/10/2021 19:36

When you make choices sometimes some doors get closed to you I'm afraid.

Blimey! You're not expecting adult behaviour are you?

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 19:24

@ArabellaScott

Oh, also quite happy to have transmen in women's spaces, yep. A beard isn't what is risky about males; it's the muscle strength, size, weight, height and penis.
I think either way it's open abuse by some men (not trans) who claim to be trans.
ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 19:20

True, Rainbow. I also haven't ever heard from any transmen who wish to use women's spaces, so perhaps this is just not an issue.

RainbowCrossing · 17/10/2021 19:18

@ArabellaScott

Oh, also quite happy to have transmen in women's spaces, yep. A beard isn't what is risky about males; it's the muscle strength, size, weight, height and penis.
That's always been a no from me. I don't mean non-passing transmen, but once you have a taken hormones and have a beard, deep voice etc the testosterone makes you make women uncomfortable in women's spaces. So no. When you make choices sometimes some doors get closed to you I'm afraid.

But I am sure that transmen know this and I don't see any great clamouring from passing trans men to use the women's. Although I do see 'allies' using them as a gotcha all the fucking live long day Hmm

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 18:54

Oh, also quite happy to have transmen in women's spaces, yep. A beard isn't what is risky about males; it's the muscle strength, size, weight, height and penis.

ArabellaScott · 17/10/2021 18:52

if a woman tried to attack me I'd stand a good chance of fighting her off as we would most likely be a similar size.

And also she won't have a penis so the risk of rape/pregnancy won't be there.

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 18:49

@GoldenBlue
They are still women and should have the opportunity to use women's only spaces. I don't feel afraid of trans men. Despite them having increased strength and potentially aggression due to testosterone I'm still less afraid of them than men and trans women

I wasn't disputing they are women. Some may be afraid of trans men. But doesn't it also lead to greater risk of men entering female only spaces?

GoldenBlue · 17/10/2021 18:38

[quote Kosmin]@ChattyLion
Similarly any woman who identifies as a man or non binary or anything else is welcome in the women’s toilets whatever surgery they’ve had or clothes or whatever they’ve got on or had done. Because sex can’t be changed. Women’s risks from male behaviour and male bodies are still there whatever the female person’s age, presentation etc.

Isn't there a risk posed by women who are taking male hormones (as these increase strength and aggression) in female only spaces?

Also, if women identifying as men still use the female only spaces, that is obviously fine for those cases. But as some of these women may look like men, won't this raise the possibility that some men will use these facilities, claiming that they are women (trans men)?

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?[/quote]
They are still women and should have the opportunity to use women's only spaces. I don't feel afraid of trans men. Despite them having increased strength and potentially aggression due to testosterone I'm still less afraid of them than men and trans women

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 18:36

@334bu

*Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?* Are you saying that someone like Elliot Page would be safe in a male only area?
If people who wouldn't be safe in the male only area can access female only areas, by self ID, this would be open to abuse by men who could pass as women or trans men.
334bu · 17/10/2021 18:01

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?
Are you saying that someone like Elliot Page would be safe in a male only area?

Kosmin · 17/10/2021 17:41

@ChattyLion
Similarly any woman who identifies as a man or non binary or anything else is welcome in the women’s toilets whatever surgery they’ve had or clothes or whatever they’ve got on or had done. Because sex can’t be changed. Women’s risks from male behaviour and male bodies are still there whatever the female person’s age, presentation etc.

Isn't there a risk posed by women who are taking male hormones (as these increase strength and aggression) in female only spaces?

Also, if women identifying as men still use the female only spaces, that is obviously fine for those cases. But as some of these women may look like men, won't this raise the possibility that some men will use these facilities, claiming that they are women (trans men)?

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?

ChattyLion · 17/10/2021 08:00

I didn’t see that thread but doesn’t sound good that a whole thread about men in women’s toilets was deleted. Why not just delete individual posts if they break MN Talk guidelines? Otherwise, @MNHQ it will look very bad. Was the discussion was helping women too much? Were women too angry? Were women basically unanimous that they don’t want men around when we’re vulnerable? Why’s that a problem? Why can’t we talk about this stuff on here?

Men in women’s toilets is a real and an evidenced threat to women. I couldn’t care less how that man identifies his ‘gender’ or he doesn’t, I don’t care what he’s wearing or he isn’t in there, this is simply not about ‘transphobia’. You do you. Keep your Penis out of the Ladies’.

Similarly any woman who identifies as a man or non binary or anything else is welcome in the women’s toilets whatever surgery they’ve had or clothes or whatever they’ve got on or had done. Because sex can’t be changed. Women’s risks from male behaviour and male bodies are still there whatever the female person’s age, presentation etc.

I agree that there’s way more to single sex spaces than single sex toilets (like for example schools and colleges in universities for women) but toilets seem to be a particularly urgent focus for male entryism.
Pretty obvious to most women why that is, isn’t it.

It’s an expression of a sexist culture that men now want to remove all of women’s hard-won cultural and physical boundaries that we have from men. And that other people will so readily get behind that agenda. Because it means they hate female solidarity and they love female vulnerability. We can’t escape our bodies any more than they can, everyone knows that nobody actually can. And so female body related stuff where we’re vulnerable is a soft target for a male power grab if they think we’re doing a bit too well professionally or otherwise in society for their liking.

Notice few men are actively campaigning to encourage mixed sex behaviour from women or ‘sex blind’ behavior from women in the other often gendered areas of life, that tend to advantage men- like typical pay in the workplace. They’re not all out in lanyards and with corporate sponsorship campaigning for more time to be spent on male involvement in parenting their own children. They’re not out campaigning to dismantle gender stereotypes are they?

Biological sex and enforcing gender norms on our female bodies seems very important to genderists to campaign on where men’s sexual rights to access women and children might be limited. That is, they seem to focus their efforts on areas where behavioural norms and legal safeguards for women that are specifically aimed at men are needed.

The genderist political agenda at heart is about advancing men’s sexual rights and I think a lot of women recognise that, even if not always consciously seeing it at first. And that urge for more male power is why we get so much shit from men for trying to resist it. Or even if we just try to name it for what it is. Makes them look bad if anyone brings in sunlight to this whole area so they want women silenced.

GAHgamel · 17/10/2021 07:52

Setting the safety aspects to one side for a minute, one of the reasons I have for wanting single sex spaces is the fact that I have spent most of my life being told all the ways I must modify my behaviour so as not to attract the wrong type of male attention. In single sex spaces I don't have that additional subconscious mental load.

Namenic · 17/10/2021 07:45

LobsterNapkin - yes it is likely to be perceived danger. But there is also a real reason for that perception.

Certain groups - women, smaller men, children, injured people may rationally feel more ‘danger’ in situations. Almost all of these groups will feel more threatened by men than women. Whilst single sex spaces does not fix all threat of violence, it can reduce it for women and girls. 3rd space toilets with floor to ceiling walls and washbasins can also help other groups.

Personally I feel more comfortable becoming naked in front of certain people (eg v close relatives, medical professionals) regardless of their sex than other people. For non medical people I do not know, I am more comfortable with being naked in front of women than men. I think it’s pretty rational as they are less likely to assault me and if they did, I am more likely to be able to to successfully defend myself.