Why single sex spaces

Why if no one is supposed to pay any mind to who is in the toilets with them would it disadvantage an MTF trans person to use a male one? It's just about respect for women and girls.

So I have a trans friend. She is fully post operative. Been living after transition for about 20 years.

You really think she should use the male toilets?

Yes, or campaign for a third space. Female toilets are for female people.

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?

Why should your friend get special privileges? If they have a right to choose which "sex" of prison to go to, why shouldn't we all?

I'm a fellow male. I identify with women and prefer being around women. So why can't I go to a women's prison? I'd much prefer a mainly-female environment too.

Why should I be penalised for a refusal to believe in gendered souls? I refuse to accept that your male friend has any more right to a mainly-female space than I do, or that they are less of a risk to women.

If the state is going to insist on putting males in female spaces, then I think it's probably better if I take one of those place than many of the dodgier men out there. There are bad people out there, you know...

And, maybe, I can help by forcing recognition that these are mixed-sex spaces. A lot of the problems come from organisations creating mixed-sex spaces but trying to pretend they're not.

I was talking to DP the other week about male violence and what it’s like to be a woman.
The topic started because I was reading an article about the 81 women who have been killed since Sarah Everards death.
I explained to him that when women go on first dates we have to consider our safety. He joked ‘Oh, did you think I’d kill you?’ I answered very seriously ‘Well you have the physical strength to kill me, I don’t have the physical strength to kill you. Women are physically weaker and it’s something we have to accept’ I don’t think he’s considered it from that point of view.
Trans women don’t lose that physical strength and no amount of empathy and sympathy will change that fact nor the fact that if our safeguards are removed we are risking our safety

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I agree with better diagnosis but I don’t agree that these odd cases make good law.

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?[/quote]
Do you believe that a person with a penis should be jailed in a female prison if they identify as a women.

What if they have breasts

What if they feel that they pass as a woman

What if they have 'lived as' a woman for 20 years?

Over 90% of male to female transitioners keep their penis

Your friend needs to be protected if she were jailed, but women aren't support humans. Trans women shouldn't be in female prisons to lower their risk when it increases the risk to women. 3rd spaces sound sensible to ensure their protection from male violence

I wonder if your friend believes that female prisoners should be forced to share cells and showers with a stranger with abpenis? I hope they would say no.
Laws have to cover everyone and all eventualities.
Women are not expendable j, just because some male people are unhappy with who they are.

If the law permits "odd cases" (an unusual euphemism for a violent rapist being given access to a building of trapped women who cannot leave), then it is bad law.

Properly drafted legislation does not have loopholes that mean male rapists can be rewarded for their crime with a female cellmate.

Think I'm exaggerating?

extract

The concern among staff and inmates is a risk of sexual assault. ^The employee cites a recent incident in which an inmate from a male facility raped a female in the women’s prison upon arrival.& The transferred inmate, according to the employee, is incarcerated for a sex offense and has “fully functional male genitalia, a history of violence and sexual depravity in the community, and has been found guilty of sexual assault against other inmates while housed in the men’s facilities.”

“He is a proven sexual predator, having committed multiple crimes against women, yet the State of Washington had no problem moving him into a women’s facility and housing him with the most vulnerable in our population (our mental health unit),” the employee wrote.

“Word of the incident has inevitably traveled throughout the facility, causing much concern amongst both inmates and staff,” the employee said. “It demonstrated the state’s willingness to put the most vulnerable of our population in harm’s way, by locking them in a cell with a proven predator, with zero accountability or repercussions for the perpetrator.”

Among the inmates transferred to the women’s facility is Donna Perry, formerly known as Douglas Perry, who was convicted for killing three sex workers. Before being charged, Perryreportedly went to Thailandfor gender reassignment surgery. Prosecutors during the trial claimed that Perry had undergone the surgery to avoid suspicion for the killings.

Also recently transferred in was Hobby Bingham, now known as Princess Zoee Marie Andromeda Love, whowas convictedfor having sex with a 12-year-old girl. Bingham is alleged by the anonymous employee to have had sex with a female inmate at the women’s facility.

Continues: mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/

Back in the UK, we had the notorious Karen White.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

and we have now had a judicial review (brought by a woman raped in prison) that agreed that the presence of rapists in their prison was distressing to women, but said it was for parliament to sort out.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I agree with better diagnosis but I don’t agree that these odd cases make good law.

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?

[quote Cascascascas]@DorsVenabili

So I have a trans friend. She is fully post operative. Been living after transition for about 20 years.

You really think she should use the male toilets?

I don’t.

You aren’t talking about trans people. You are talking about perverts and sex offenders.

Don’t you think you need to make that distinction?[/quote]
I think you need to discuss this with Stonewall UK, the modern flavour of trans rights activist and all the twitterati.

Between them have gone to great efforts to include, quoting you, "perverts and sex offenders" under the transgender umbrella. A number of people are on record saying that people who committed horrific crimes of sexual violence are entitled to the same manner of treatment as your friend. Here is a Lib-Dem personage arguing for that we shouldn't misgender Ian Huntley, the man who murdered two ten year olds, if he was transitioning. order-order.com/2018/06/11/libdem-policy-transphobic-call-ian-huntley-ian-huntley/

What have you done to reject these people?

No-one ever consulted women on any kind of scale in 2004 or prior to that. There was no referendum performed. Transwomen were told they could use women's spaces. To be fair, if I had been asked in 2004, I would have said that I was fine with it. I was in fact in favour of the GRA 2004. I was also young, and not that well informed about how it could impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. Most importantly, I was expecting the toilet issue to stop there, and that transwomen and transmen would be put in siderooms as a matter of course in hospitals, and that no one with a penis, who had been convicted on an incredibly violent rape, would ever be placed in a women's prison.

Now I find that the inch, which was extended to transwomen, is being used to allow "perverts and sex offenders" [your wording] to take a mile. It's like inviting two nice friends to stay over for a quiet weekend, and discovering they've told the whole town it's an open house party. And watching in horror as violent thugs urinate on the carpet.

So either the trans rights activists need to reject these people entirely, or we'll be having that inch of compromise back. This behaviour is why you can't have nice things. Get rid of them.

#NoThankYou

@DorsVenabili

So I have a trans friend. She is fully post operative. Been living after transition for about 20 years.

You really think she should use the male toilets?

I don’t.

You aren’t talking about trans people. You are talking about perverts and sex offenders.

Don’t you think you need to make that distinction?

I have had 3 children. honestly I would be happy to walk down main street naked from the point of view of worry about my body etc.

I absolutely do not want to be naked in front of men in an enclosed environment because I know what male sexual violence - indeed male violence - is like. Today my dd and her friend aged 19 had a man come up to them and say "I'd like to smell your ass". they ran into a nearby hotel and he followed them in 2 steps behind. Receptionist called security.

I was a member of a woman only gym for a while - large proportion of lesbians - the friend who recommended me to go there is a lesbian. I had no problem stripping off or having others strip off or walk around naked because the atmosphere was welcoming, non-sexual, non-violent. If someone saw me and thought to themselves "she's cute" more power to them. If I felt that was the only risk men posed - seeing me and thinking "she's cute" without any other expectation then maybe I'd think differently.

Eh?

You think it's to stop people what?
I can only assume you mean shagging?
As clearly mutual flirting is hardly a problem!

Can you give more info?

Why do you think this is the main reason for single sex wards?

People in hosp are generally not feeling tip top. Elderly people can be in long term, they need to be separate to stop them getting down to it?

Can you elaborate. I've not heard this view before and it's an interesting take.

The main reason for single sex spaces, I would think, is to keep people who could find each other sexually attractive separated from one another. Separating men and women achieves this for the most part.

Oh and yes if the man had been falling down drunk in the fancy hotel restaurant I have no doubt she would have.

Austrians are not same as us. Different culture. You're guessing. Badly.

Lol.

You haven't answered any of my questions!

You stated that you would have no compunction about reacting negatively, in a different country, with different culture norms etc.

You believe it's absolutely ok to tell someone off in their own society for doing something that is not the way in yours.

That says quite a lot about you. About other people's norms, acceptable behaviour etc. Being no barrier to you if you don't like them.

Yep. Interesting.

The questions though. Can you speak or understand Austrian? Why the term Karen? Swearing at her when you didn't understand what exactly she said?

Standing up and swearing in English seems very... Well. You'd have to do it loudly and slowly obv as then any who didn't speak English would understand.

I'm not impressed by your rewriting the whole situation either.

That's not an argument that's just obvious goalpost moving/ trying to divert.

Oh and icing on the cake. My behaviour was wrong and I was colluding in oppressing her.

Yep. All very interesting.

The TW photos above are really convincing me that TW are not women. When do women get a rise out of putting women off using loos, and when did women mean adult human man?

Are you saying that you would rather be complicit in chiding women who don't stay in their box? Publicly shame them for not being ladylike enough? Sounds rather patriarchal/handmaidenish.

Interesting response

VERY interesting.

As a VISITOR in a different country with it's own culture, standards of behaviour, norms.

You would STAND UP and tell the woman who berated the drunk one.

To GET TO FUCK. And you'd call her a Karen???!!!

Blimey. That's. Incredibly arrogant!

I mentioned it was abroad I'm sure.

Do you speak a lot of languages? This was in Austria. Not a language widely studied I don't think? Do you have German? It's quite different but probably get by...

I'm hazarding a guess you're not fluent in Austrian.

So in a different country. With a woman berating another for being drunk in Austrian. You would stand up (pretty posh hotel restaurant) and tell her (in English?) to get to fuck. And call her a Karen. Which might well mean nothing to her.

That's a really interesting post. Thank you.

It was a figure of speech so I probably wouldn't use those exact words. But if I was quietly having a few drinks with my partner and happened to wobble a bit when getting up....well, if a complete stranger started laying into me I'd absolutely tell her to fuck off and I wouldn't care who was listening. Bet she wouldn't try this shit with a man getting quietly tipsy with a mate!

More transwomen

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9025703/Transgender-police-officer-44-self-identifies-woman-19-years-force.html

But a male man boy doesn't need to do ANYTHING.

Bog standard male blokey chap comes in with a friend who is male and blokey.

Big strong tall bearded deep voices. Erm. One with a t-shirt saying Dave's stag 2009 with photo of load of men. Other with pint in hand and chatting about strip clubs.

I mean. You know. Men.

To assume they are men is bigoted. You don't know their internal gender ID. women can be tall. Have deep voices etc. Some women love strip clubs! Etc.

Then a blind eye must be turned.

Full stop.

So this current conversation is interesting but in the end beside the point.

Kosmin

But isn't easier for a man to pass as as a trans man (i.e. a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man) than a trans woman?

Simply put: no.

These are all transwomen. Who is it easier to look like for a man? Another person born male who happens to have gender dysphoria, like one of these people, or dainty Elliot Page who is 5 foot 1, and weighs about 7 stone?

www.pennlive.com/life/2020/07/dr-rachel-levine-remains-laser-focused-despite-critics-insults-their-health-is-still-important-to-me.html Assistant Secretary of Health of the USA

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-want-widen-bandwidth-gender-9686747 Stonewall Adviser

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292 Davina Ayrton

Kosmin please refer to my post 00.26 re transmen and female spaces. That should cover a fair bit of your comment.

On the other parts of your last post.

Reported to WHO exactly? And on what grounds?

Additionally. Women judging other women on appearance is wrong. Anti feminist. Gatekeeping 'womanhood'. Oppressive for women who don't measure up to some feminine standard of appearance. Etc etc.

The expectation is that women and girls make no assumptions based on looks, clothes, any aspect of physical appearance.

It's cruel and transphobic to give any reaction, any hint that you are even thinking ... Erm. That's a bloke.

So not sure what your point is tbh.

I'm clearly suggesting that the big concern isn't trans men. Some of them might pose a threat. But the main concern is that if women are expected to share with trans men (some of whom look like men) it is going to be easier for men to gain access and women will be less inclined to report/ask them to leave and so they will be at greater risk.

XY = penis and male drive towards women. Therefore XY are separated from XX.

It's not up to XX to avoid XY in case they want to stare/grope/rape, it's up to XY to follow basic rules and use the male facilities.