Why single sex spaces

Do all trans women have to be treated the same way? (Because none can demonstrate they don't pose a risk)

Uh, yes precisely because they cannot demonstrate they don't pose as risk, much the same as men are treated. Men who are not TW aren't permitted to access female single sex spaces and services which could be argued by men as discriminatory. To allow some TW in and not other TW would be discrimination against those who are not allowed in so the blanket rule should apply - none allowed into single sex female spaces and services, one clear rule, no discrimination, equal and fair treatment for all.

It's not just about risk, it is also about privacy, dignity and comfort for women, are women not worth that consideration?

@Cascascascas
Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

I'm pretty sure this means "trans women are not necessarily criminals - not criminals as a consequence of being a trans women."

It does not imply that they can't be criminals. There is overlap (trans women who assault women).

Do all trans women have to be treated the same way? (Because none can demonstrate they don't pose a risk)

@HoardingSamphireSaurus
*I have a transwoman friend too. You'd be very surpised how many here have transfriends and relatives. He is certain that, no matter what he does to his body, it remains male. He has recently re evaulated all the times he used female facilities with little or no thought for the eomen in them. That has caused him great heartache. His entire adult life has not been what he imagined it to be.

He blames TRAs, agitators, lobbyists for all of this.*

I haven't met any transwomen, so I don't know how many share your friend's perspective. If a significant proportion were able to make it known that they disagreed with the activists and lobbyists, it's hard to see how they could counter that. Everyone else who pushes back is labelled a transphobe. I don't think they could make that stick against transwomen.

The example above with me mentioned is a joke. One person proves nothing.

Odd that your friend, your 'one person' seems reasonable to you yet mine doesn't!

And anyway, as others have said, safeguarding is predicated upon one hypothetical person!

And you @Cascascascas till have to explain what those two lines actually meant. I am making perfect sense. It is you that might have lost that particular plot!

One person proves nothing, so your transwomen friend being lovely and no threat proves nothing either.

Safeguarding is predicated on that one person scenario because one is one too many, you do understand that, don't you?

The only one talking nonsense here is you, surely you are capable of answering questions intelligently and coherently?

The example above with me mentioned is a joke. One person proves nothing.

Sorry I could reply to you Hording for some reason. Ummm perhaps as you are talking nonsense

I think 3rd space toilets with a washbasin in cubicle would be really helpful. If I was with my male children I would probably use them (as 1 is quite tall and almost 8, but anxious).

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Surely @Cascascascas that's just very poorly typed. You can't be saying that transwomen who assault women are not criminals! Can you?

Try again. We can wait...

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I agree with better diagnosis but I don’t agree that these odd cases make good law.

My friend is a woman. She always felt like that and had the guts to be her.

Why should bad people penalise her?[/quote]
Yeah! I have a transwoman friend too. You'd be very surpised how many here have transfriends and relatives. He is certain that, no matter what he does to his body, it remains male. He has recently re evaulated all the times he used female facilities with little or no thought for the eomen in them. That has caused him great heartache. His entire adult life has not been what he imagined it to be.

He blames TRAs, agitators, lobbyists for all of this. Not women. They aren' the 'bad people' no matter how angrily they react.

I’ve seen posts recently where people have been insisting that discussion groups on ‘women’s issues’ should be strictly women only

Why the hell should men be included in discussion groups on women's issues?

I really worry we are putting these things back out of the mainstream, and going back to a situation where they will only be mentioned in hushed tones, when no men are about.

Uh no, it just means that women will be talking about women and for women and on subjects that effect only women, that's called progress and women we are a world away from the Victorian era where women were embarrassed about all things sex and women related. Women are actual fully functioning grown ups with education and careers and everything or hadn't you noticed?

It doesn’t seem that far fetched that at some point, some women are going to insist that, for example, men should not be present at a birth. As was the case in the Tudor period

If a woman doesn't want a man in attendance at the birth that should be her right and her call, your objection to this is what exactly?

What a bizarre extrapolation, Holly. Do tell me what perspective a man can add to a women's group, discussing women's issues, as relevant to women.

I do not attend such a group, but if I did and wanted to extend my own understanding of women's issues, beyond my own lived experience, I wouldn't be looking for a man's opinions. Nor would I feel comfortable sharing some of my own experiences, with a man in the room, whatever his intentions.

Does that mean I would exclude my husband from my private thoughts on this, or any matter? Of course not.

Does this mean that men will routinely be excluded from the births of their children? Why should it? How ridiculous.

Why should bad people penalise her?

Why should women be penalised to suit your friend?

Why should women lose single sex spaces and services to suit your friend?

Why should women be used as validation tools, human shields and collateral damage to suit your friend?

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Transwomen are not what? Men? Criminals? or Men who assault women?

What are Transwoman who assault women then if they are not criminals?

Don't say there are absolutely no Transwomen anywhere, ever, who assault women or that there are absolutely no Transwomen criminals at all, anywhere, ever as both of those things are patently untrue.

How can we tell which Transwomen are those likely to assault women from those who are not? Is there a special sign?

All the emphasis on women- only spaces really concerns me in some ways. It seems in some ways to be going backwards not forwards. I’ve seen posts recently where people have been insisting that discussion groups on ‘women’s issues’ should be strictly women only. I really worry we are putting these things back out of the mainstream, and going back to a situation where they will only be mentioned in hushed tones, when no men are about. It doesn’t seem that far fetched that at some point, some women are going to insist that, for example, men should not be present at a birth. As was the case in the Tudor period ….

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Odd cases was used in the numerical sense.[/quote]
"What can be said, however, is that data collected across the prison estate in March/April 2019 recorded the following:

i) There were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

ii) 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate. Of the 129 in the male estate, 74 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

iii) Although no records are kept, the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC is thought to be very low: a single-figure total across the estate as a whole."

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

What do you mean?
Not men? Not people who assault women? Not criminals?

Approximately 18% of the male prison population are serving time for sex offences.

There are no transmen held in the men's estate.

Of the recorded trans prison population (multiple caveats as to the total trans prison population including those with a GRC not recorded as their actual sex etc) 60 out of 125 are serving time for sex offences. That is 48% of the stats we know.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629.amp

98% of perpetrators of rape and sexual assault are male. And bearing in mind that the UK police seem to allow self-id, we cannot be sure that the remaining 2% of rape and sexual assault perpetrators are actually biologically female. Under UK law, rape is a male-only crime involving penetration with a penis but a small number of 'women' are convicted each year.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/natureofsexualassaultbyrapeorpenetrationenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020#perpetrator-characteristics

[quote Cascascascas]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Odd cases was used in the numerical sense.[/quote]
Can I make a request? If you're interested in numbers.

Google how many men and women there are in prison in the UK.
The Google how many sex offenders in the male estate.

Then take an estimate of how many of those sex offenders would identify as female. Bearing in mind that there will be opportunistic identification as well as sincere.

Then do a little more maths and work out how many would still have a penis.
Then see what proportion of the female estate would then be sex offenders with penises.

I'm willing to best your 'odd cases' hypothesis doesn't add up.

[quote Cascascascas]@DorsVenabili

I am amazed by the level of resentment here.
The level in some people of 1950’s thinking.

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Maybe we need to have third toilets and all campaign for that or single cubicles for all![/quote]
Crack on with your campaign for third spaces. Let's see how that goes down on TRA social media 🍿🍿🍿

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Men (whether or not they identify as transwomen) who assault women are criminals.

@DorsVenabili

I am amazed by the level of resentment here.
The level in some people of 1950’s thinking.

Men who assault women are criminals.
Trans women are not.

Maybe we need to have third toilets and all campaign for that or single cubicles for all!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Odd cases was used in the numerical sense.

How do you use a moon cup in a stalls situation never mind a universal loo?

@NecessaryScene
Why should your friend get special privileges? If they have a right to choose which "sex" of prison to go to, why shouldn't we all?

Isn't the most important issue the rights of women?

If particular women prisoners consent to sharing with particular trans women, this can be accommodated in a prison in which all prisoners are trans women or women who have consented to sharing with trans women.

@NiceGerbil
Reported to WHO exactly? And on what grounds?

Report to other people or authorities, depending on the situation, availability and degree of concern: other people, HR, security, police. On the grounds of suspecting them of violating single sex spaces.

Women judging other women on appearance is wrong. Anti feminist. Gatekeeping 'womanhood'. Oppressive for women who don't measure up to some feminine standard of appearance. Etc etc.

This is question begging. When I see someone who claims to be a woman or who is in a female only space, I don't know if this is true.

The expectation is that women and girls make no assumptions based on looks, clothes, any aspect of physical appearance.

Whose expectation?

It's cruel and transphobic to give any reaction, any hint that you are even thinking ... Erm. That's a bloke.

In other words, "be kind!" - Seriously? Women should set some safety concerns to avoid the possibility of causing offence?

Why shouldn't men make all males feel comfortable in XY toilets?

Why is it women and children who need to change and learn to ignore what they can clearly see with their eyes?

At what age do we teach children that they can use toilets with mothers and also any man can whenever he would like, but the child must call the man she if referring to him, e.g. "she's next". But out of the toilet and in a queue for ice cream they can then revert to reality and say "he's next"?

In the wider context the fakery falls away, real language exists for the majority and males are visibly different to females.