Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

Frankly?
I would have voted remain (but not allowed to vote) but now Brexit is the reality we all have to make sure that it works, because the alternative is too awful. So it is fine to say that you prefer to be in the EU, but confronted with the reality of Brexit we need solutions that work within the framework of the fact that Britain is no longer in the EU.

With Trans issues, I feel pretty much the same. The genie is not going back in the bottle, and the reality of our lives is that there are trans people and they are people who should have human rights afforded to them the same as anyone else. So you many not believe TWAW but the fact is that they are here and we have to find the least damaging way forward.

So - and i agree that there are a lot of things that need to be sorted out and clarified - we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

That is not to say that i don't think that there is a need for single-sex spaces, because clearly many people want them. But we have to find a way forward because how things are now is clearly not acceptable to many people.

Edgeofacoin - exactly. There were reasonable arguments for and against membership of the EU (though I think many of the problems could have been solved without leaving) and there was a debate over Brexit. I’d be happier if Remain had won, but I dislike the portrayal of those who voted to leave as mindless bigots.

Cascascascas gives the perfect example of what’s wrong with the trans issue. Abuse is the trans lobby’s only weapon.

I think you can compare freedom of movement with mixed sex spaces and self-ID. They are things that would work in a utopia, where everyone in the world is equal, well off, protected and safe, but in reality, while they work pretty well for the secure middle and upper classes, when it comes to the more socially vulnerable they can and are being exploited and abused, particularly as Britain, unlike other EU countries, does not have ID cards. The friends who work in social services voted Leave. They were dealing with the dark side of open borders we don't like to think about.

And from our elected politicians, that is pretty unforgivable.

I have thought of another similarity - I don't think Johnson and Gove ever thought they would have to enact Brexit, and Keir Starmer doesn't given the impression that he has given 2 minutes thought to the consequences of creating the legislation he suggests he supports.

Well, they’re very divisive and emotive subjects, but I don’t see them as being particular similar, no. Gender ideology is sui generis IMO - its aim is to fundamentally change everyone’s understanding of one of the key concepts in human life, the sexual binary. I can’t think of any other ideology attempting something similar. Not even religions, whose aims seem to be more around explanations for these phenomena and building structures around them.

Gender ideology accepts no quarter, no doubt, no questioning either, which does make it like religion, but not brexit really. The ‘sides’ in brexit merely needed enough people voting their way. They didn’t need every voter and they didn’t need their voters to be completely without doubt. Nor did they particularly care about others disagreeing. Some, I would say, enjoyed that aspect!

Brexit was a political decision about the future of a country. Deeply important because whichever way it went would affect the future, but not attempting to change our understanding of ourselves.

This post has made me think there may be one similarity though... I disagree with some posters about arrogant remainers. Not that they don’t exist, but with the narrative that the arrogance and bullying went one way and the idea that being strongly remain was in some way distasteful. I can recall an awful lot of gloating on sm about remainer tears after the referendum. More importantly, I don’t feel sorry for finding the reasoning behind remain lacking and saying that (civilly); I actually think it’s important to stand up for that. The TRA issue is all about shutting down criticism and debate, and I feel more passionately than ever that we should be able to criticise ideas. There may have been a lot of abuse being hurled from all quarters after the brexit vote, but outlets like the guardian also quickly sprung into action with handwringing articles about how leavers had not been listened to. I feel like some of the same thing is at work in this (non)debate: shame and guilt at being in a perceived privileged group. Not really true in either of these situations IMO.

[quote Cascascascas]@LaetitiaASD

Not atall.

Trans people just want to accepted as the gender they are. Remember all foetus start off female in the womb.

They don’t want it be victimised.

All women want to be safe.

Brexit was a lie sold buy ignorant toffs to gullible people with a horrid hint of money racism and past glory of empire[/quote]
All fetus's do not start off as female as sex is determined by your genetics. Male fetus's are XY from conception.

Even if you had not made a basic scientific error, your comment is absolutely irrelevant unless you are willing to offer a definition of 'gender' - something no Trans activitist has ever been willing to do so far.

The fact that trans people don't want to be victimised is true and understandable, just completely irrelevant to the point and in no way an argument which suggests that we should pretend that people change sex or that sex is irrelevant.

Trans ideology is a lie sold to ignorant wokes who are more interestsed in virtue signalling and protecting a male elite than in creating true safety for everyone or addressing structural sexism.

Brexit = Britain's history as an island nation on the edge of a large, often war-torn continent, its fraught relationship with near neighbour Ireland, its post-war recovery in terms of jobs, wealth distribution and bruised national pride, the changing face of the EU over the decades, the rise of other political units eg China and the shifting sands of global economics. Complex and intertwined issues.

Sex = Homo sapiens being a biologically dimorphic mammal. Mammals can't change sex. Nothing complex to see here.

She then suggested that people supported Brexit because they had bad diets.

That's an argument I hadn't heard before!

Mmm, see I think the virtue signalling, 'only a racist would vote for Brexit' came from the Remain side, actually. And the idea that if only the Brexiteers understood the arguments, they would vote Remain. Like the argument 'if you only met some nice trans people you would all change your minds'. I do think that too many on the Remain side saw their vote as the only morally virtuous choice.

At one point I heard a woman who had a company selling health supplements complaining that she wouldn't be able to afford school fees if she couldn't import the ingredients after Brexit. She then suggested that people supported Brexit because they had bad diets. I think she was being interviewed because she was part of a group who wanted to show that women would be adversely affected by Brexit. As somebody who voted Remain, I heard her and though "So thats why people are voting to Leave".

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]

Anyone gullible enough to believe this probably will fall for TWAW too!

I think the main similarity is the insistence on pretending things don't exist - sex, the Northern Ireland Border

Yes. Northern Ireland was a factor in my decision to vote Remain in the end. I was also worried about a few other things, some of which haven't come to pass and some of which still may, but the inability to get to grips with the question of NI annoyed me.

Also, the inability of the Brexit side to answer simple questions about how we were to leave the EU as well - that drove me towards Remain. That was something the Brexiteers had in common with the TRAs, actually - they just didn't have any consistent answers as to how they intended to do any of it (or what they planned to do about the Irish border).

I was also concerned about Gibraltar, but I think we've come up with some sort of fudge to deal with that?

Mike drop.

I think it's a bit like Brexit in that it's a huge and politically divisive subject that few saw coming fifteen years ago. Same with the 'with us or against us' rhetoric.
I think a better analogy is probably the other massive political upset of recent years: Trump.
There were huge numbers of women actively supporting Trump even after the 'grab em by the pussy' video came out and all the accusations of assault or rape. We saw a lot of people completely dismissing all of it and I really struggled to understand that. A few women, yes. The majority of women in the red states? It baffled me.
But now I'm seeing the same behaviour on the left. We see people completely waving away terrible policies like locking women in with convicted sex offenders which no one in their right mind would defend.
It seems there are a lot of people who will not only defend the indefensible but aggressively attack anyone who draws attention to it, simply because they'll defend anything, no matter how awful, if its coming from their own 'side'.
Trans activism is very much the Trumpism of the left imo.

Define arrogant.

I think you mean ignorant? (Except I'm not.)

Common confusion to conflate arrogance and ignorance, just like it's common to confuse sex, gender and science with ideology.

I’d replace racism with sexism and empire with purity spiralling/virtue signalling/jostling for moral high ground.

Mmm, see I think the virtue signalling, 'only a racist would vote for Brexit' came from the Remain side, actually. And the idea that if only the Brexiteers understood the arguments, they would vote Remain. Like the argument 'if you only met some nice trans people you would all change your minds'. I do think that too many on the Remain side saw their vote as the only morally virtuous choice.

And I say this as a Remainer who thought, and still thinks, that the UK would have done better to stay in the EU and worked with other countries to reform things from within.

The Triggernometry guys are interesting on this, actually. In 2016 they were staunchly Remain and couldn't understand why anyone would vote to Leave. Five years on, they seem to have a much more nuanced view of the issue.

I think it's also very easy to understand why some people voted Leave when you look at the way some politicians have addressed people's concerns about Self ID. Patronising, but also completely clueless.

I think the main similarity is the insistence on pretending things don't exist - sex, the Northern Ireland Border.

However, given the number of prominent Remainers who now seem completely divorced from reality, (Fox Botherer being the most obvious) it's difficult to believe that their support for Remain was ever anything more than tribal.

'l am doctor.'

That is not to say at all that I think there’s a correlation between tras/allies and brexit voters - that’s a different question, and I don’t. More the way in which people have been lied to, the paper trail to the money, the dodgy motivations involved, and how it’s caused us all to have to suffer some horrible consequences,

Brexit was a lie sold buy ignorant toffs to gullible people with a horrid hint of money racism and past glory of empire

See this is where I think trans ideology is like Brexit, comparing the genderism side to the brexiteer side.

I’d replace racism with sexism and empire with purity spiralling/virtue signalling/jostling for moral high ground.

Some people voted for brexit for clear and thoughtful reasons but many were simply lied to. Trans ideology is similar in that there’s a genuine case that transition is for some but it’s been surrounded by lies and invested interests and become a thing that people “believe in” of false grounds. (of course different in that there isn’t a single all-or-nothing vote, but it still affect law and state policy)

Then there’s a mess when it gets enacted (gender neutral toilets in schools, rapists in women’s prisons, transition regret, cf brexit shortages, lack of workforce, visa nightmares for performers, red tape on imports, no freedom of movement for us) and a lot of denial and argument.

In both cases the full disaster is yet to become apparent though even as a strong remainer I think brexit is probably the lesser disaster.

Nothing like it OP, I don’t think there is a correlation between people who voted Brexit and those who are TRAs. Quite the opposite i think, in fact. All the pronounced people, and TWAW tend to be non Brexiteers from what I’ve seen.

A dr that doesn't understand pre-gcse level biology?😄

As has been said, sex is determined at conception, by which sperm joins with the egg to give either xx or XY chromosomes.