Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

Casca--that ain't how it works, pal.

@eurochick

They not completely correct as men have nipples. So the longer the male chromosome starts to work might be a reason for mtf trans

So I do rather know a lot about the new work on this area and certainly have advanced from o level.

So the human rights I expect to be applied to everyone is the application of common sense
That is not a human right! Whose "common sense", anyway? - it's such a subjective term.

What we should hope for is that the same, just laws are applied fairly and impartially to all. No country is run by "common sense", it is run by legislation.

yes, to the third space being sex segrated!

I can get why the trans community thinks that 3rd spaces would be exclusionary. How about the 3rd space is the sex-segregated one? Then women feel excluded i guess. Interesting question.

But - if the majority agreed that 3rd spaces are the best way forward because women feel safe/included and transwomen/transmen feel safe/included then anyone who argues against a 3rd space is arguing for excluding. And we are about inclusion. So the compromise there would be to have a 3rd space in the knowledge that the majority are happy with it.

As for Brexit - most of my remain friends are either Brits in EU countries (like me, and some are stuck because they don't meet citizenship criteria) or despairing in the UK (some of whom are also stuck because they don't meet citizenship criteria). But most of us are agreed that it is
a) done
and
b) we have to make the best of it
but
c) are not shy about saying "we told you so" because we did.

I have a feeling that third (or fourth) spaces would be built and remain largely empty.
Because a woman's space is only attractive because of the women in it.
By that I don't mean that predatory men will attempt to gain access to vulnerable women and girls (although that does happen) - but that TW and TM would still use their chosen facility in line with their perceived sex.
Women's spaces are only coveted because they ARE women's spaces. A mixed sex or TW or TM space is no good for those who require validation of their chosen sex.
I've a feeling it would be a pointless and costly exercise to provide all these extra spaces.

Third spaces are the ideal way forward but we’ve been told repeatedly that this is unkind & excluding

So all transwomen are equal but some are more equal than others?

a transwoman who passes as a woman will be in danger using the men's toilets.

And as a woman who has had her fair share (if that's the word) of violence by men I agree that it is not always easy to tell who the dangerous ones are. And so i am fine with 3rd spaces (or as i said before 4th spaces because transmen so often get left out here - or are there zero issues around transmen using men only spaces?)

It is clear from this and all the other discussions that there are no clear-cut answers. And it's becoming clearer that there are no answers that will suit everyone.

So I really do believe that some small compromises are the way to move forward. And that might be 3rd (and 4th?) spaces so that we can ensure that those who need single-sex spaces for whatever reason can be and feel safe. But i would also like some recognition of the very real fear that some people have that simple self-id might lead to some men invading women's spaces because it makes it too easy for them. (and the argument that men can do that anyway is valid, but misses the point). And i know that makes me "the enemy" in a lot of trans-advocate's eyes but it is something that i feel strongly about.

We should all feel safe. And that goes for women, and trans women alike. If anything we should be learning from the Brexit shitshow that obfuscation and not being clear about possible outcomes can only lead to more problems not fewer.

Agree about how crime stats are a mess now but, happly there have been zero murders of trans people in the UK for at least two years. Whicih I am happy about. I hope one day we can say the same for women

Yes it's certainly good news that trans women are not being murdered in the UK at least. But I'm not sure that this equates to them being the safest demographic whilst using public spaces on a day to day basis. I agree that we need to stick to the facts, I just don't think that this is one of them.

Again, I understand what you're saying (quietly living TWs for 30 years, always used the women's facilities without apparent issue etc).
You say that some people are dangerous to women, but how do we decide what ones? If TW are women because they SAY they are, with no other qualifier needed, how do we police that?
What level of transness does it take to be a 'real' trans?
Again, not expecting an answer from you personally but this is the kind of issue it throws up, when you think some people are 'real' trans and others are not.
Third spaces are absolutely needed, but again, most TWs would use the ladies bathroom as that's the whole point for them. They think they are women. Some would not want to 'out' themselves in public by using that facility. Some need the validation using the female spaces brings. So we would still be having this discussion.

Glad to hear you are supportive of third spaces, thats great.

I know I have not lived an espicially closetted existance, so the idea that women are routinely or even sometimes violent to each other (or anyone else) is just not the experiance of myself or anyone else I know irl. It just isen't. And crime stats, dodgy tho they are, reflect this reality.
Female violent behaviour is very rare, and almost always linked to an endevour with men.

I'm not sure that crime data can be trusted at all any more. (not that you have linked to any)

agree and i think that sex disaggregated data on everything would make the world a much better, safer place.

Agree about how crime stats are a mess now but, happly there have been zero murders of trans people in the UK for at least two years. Whicih I am happy about. I hope one day we can say the same for women.

How about explaining what exactly a 'gender' is? or how allowning men in to womens single sex spaces will not be used by abusers?

i have also REPEATEDLY said - until I'm blue in the face - that i am COMPLETELY OVER gender and gender stereotypes because i simply can not care about it. I really don't give a flying fuck if someone "feels girly" and equates that with butterflies and pink fairy wings, even if they are the size of a prop forward with a beard like gandalf. Because i have spent my ENTIRE life being told "that's not ladylike" when I've wanted to do things. And i have ignored it because, fuck that shit.

I do have concerns about single sex spaces, as i have equally repeated often enough, and i am fully supportive of single sex spaces so that everyone can use, say, the changing room, that they are comfortable in without making others feel unsafe.

(incidentally, i have been beaten up exactly twice. Once was a man. One was a - self-proclaimed - butch lesbian corporal because i asked her girlfriend for a light. So I'm an equal opportunities victim here. I have no axe to grind. )

In the UK being trans identified is the safest demographic there is. Which is a really good thing, we can all agree on that at least?

In what way are they the safest demographic? The crime data is so messed up now. I'm assuming that one of the downsides of not recording accurate data in relation to crime statistics is that not only do male crimes get attributed to women, but also where trans people are the victims of crime is it even recorded accurately? I'm not sure that crime data can be trusted at all any more. (not that you have linked to any)

I am an older gender nonconforming woman who (clap) has (clap) never (clap) in (clap) my (clap) life (clap) EVER seen or had any trouble in a ladies loo.

good for you. I was in the army and there was often problems around using the ladies (and not all of it related to how they looked).

But you go ahead and deny other women's experiences

The point i was making is that there are occasions when it has been REALLY difficult to tell if someone is one gender or another.

Also appolgs to Brefugee if I'm piucking on you, I dont mean to, its just we've heard all these arguements a hundred times.
How about explaining what exactly a 'gender' is? or how allowning men in to womens single sex spaces will not be used by abusers?

Oh pleasssse, not the butch lesbians!

I am an older gender nonconforming woman who (clap) has (clap) never (clap) in (clap) my (clap) life (clap) EVER seen or had any trouble in a ladies loo.

I hate that clapping thing btw, but it somehow seems appropriate in this case.

i have no idea since i am not pushing any cause. I think third spaces seems, to me at least, a great way of making sure that single sex spaces are available. So we actually probably need 4 spaces since transmen might want one too?

Have any of you been to a German swimming pool recently? Indoor type? The one i have been using for 25 years has a massive changing area with cubicles (not floor to ceiling) and you go in, pick a cubicle, lock it, get changed, put your clothes in a locker and go to the (single sex) shower, then to the pool.

There are no separate changing areas and it's fine afaik. Certainly the one i use has had no problems.

@Brefugee
why are third spaces so anathma to the cause?

I find the idea that we can’t tell TW from bio women in the flesh to be untrue.

For many that is true. However i have been in the presence of several butch lesbians (their description) who have had nightclub security called on them for using the women's toilets. Short of dropping their pants (one did offer) it was difficult to tell.

Tbh - i am in favour of single cubicle, floor to ceiling doors, with sinks, for everyone.

In the UK being trans identified is the safest demographic there is. Which is a really good thing, we can all agree on that at least?

Also men in dresses uding mens loos are not in any more danger from men than any other man. Lets stick to facts.

I suspect they are generally in more danger than other men. In the same way that gay or effeminate men (or men who are perceived to be gay) are in more danger.

if you willfully don't want to understand that a transwoman who appears to pretty much everyone in the universe to be a woman should be using the men's loo instead of the women's, as they have been for years, we aren't getting any further in this discussion. I think that is unreasonable to expect.

The men in women's prisons is due to an application on the part of the prison service of self-ID as i understood it (i could be remembering wrongly) since self-ID is not yet law in the uk and a GRC would be required.

I believe that people like Karen White and Jessica Yaniv are dangerous to women for sure. And i believe that the courts in Canada at least are starting to wake up to the latter. Not before harm has been done, of course, but they are waking up.

They are the extremes. There are transwomen, and transmen, who go about their everyday lives in peace and harmony and are equally disturbed at the extremes.