Is the Trans Issue like Brexit?

I never felt anxious to discuss Brexit —from
either a Leave or a Remain perspective — and I had a lot of really interesting discussions about it. I didn’t fall out with or get blocked by anyone as a result. The trans thing is on another level. The vitriol and vindictiveness coming from TRAs, and the complete refusal to seek out common ground, really frighten me.

since all she did was go in, use the loo and then spend half an hour redoing her lippy she was like everyone else. I really don't see what the problem is with that.

The problem is that there was a male person in the women’s toilets! It’s really not complicated.

Knowing that some male people can ‘pass’ as female is distressing for women who now feel unsafe in women’s facilities that were previously safe and welcoming places. Breaking women’s boundaries by stealth is not harmless.

I now feel uneasy around masculine-looking women in public toilets, especially in isolated places. I try to hide this, of course, as I don’t want to insult a woman, nor to endanger myself if the person was really male.

The trouble is that if your lovely friend gets to - and my lovely TW friend and their lovely TW friends and everyone's lovely TW friends -

then so do all TW, plus as you say, any other male person who wishes regardless of whether or not they sincerely have transitioned, plus the Whites, Yanivs, Chapmans and Kardashians of this world. No one is going to stand on the door and check whether each one passes (and what a cruel thing to do that would be) or stand up to those like the burger throwing individual who will shout and rant if challenged because they present entirely as male and want the right to go where they choose when they choose.

The common denominator here is total disregard for the fact that this is a female space, meeting the needs of female people, and its first duty is to provide inclusion and facilities for those female people.

And once any male people are using it, it's a mixed sex space, and we've excluded some females from any access from any facility to give male people their preferred choice and best wellbeing out of all the available facilities. Which is obviously appallingly - well not sexist, it's flat out male supremacist. It sees the needs and wishes of male more important than considering the basic rights of access and equality of females.

What are we going to do with the females who can't use mixed sex spaces? What are we going to do with no female spaces at all? Where every space is one that any male walks into at any time?

We tried a compromise. Some few TW, sincere transitioners, that was the plan. It was called the GRA. It's failed. Look at it failing for females. Male people have proven that they cannot respect female people's needs or boundaries or even allow them basic consideration, and that any access for any will mean forced total access for all, regardless of impact on females.

This is male people's problem to solve now, in finding how to be more inclusive and support the needs of all males. I understand this is sad and upsetting for the TW who have been used to access, but they need to take up their sense of loss with the people that pushed female good will until it broke.

Respectfully, transwomen are not women no matter how well they 'pass'.

There's no way women in single sex spaces can tell the difference between nice transwomen and perverts.

my point being that these women looked like women, they just were women in all respects in their everyday lives. One lived in jeans and sneakers and no make up and looked pretty androgynous tbh, and most likely would have used the men's if push came to shove. The other was like many of my girlfriends at the time and you couldn't get any of them away from a frikkin' mirror. People only ever said "i KNEW she was trans" if they heard after they'd met her a few times.

She would have never used a men's toilet in a month of Sundays, but since all she did was go in, use the loo and then spend half an hour redoing her lippy she was like everyone else. I really don't see what the problem is with that.

I do have a problem with people pretending to be transwomen to go into women's toilets, and i also don't have a problem with people challenging that, and i totally get that it might be dangerous to do so. I'd worry for myself, even though I'm fairly robust about a lot of things. I do think the toilet/changing room issue is a relatively new thing though. Since "lady dick" started to be used maybe.

The two transwomen i have known quietly went on with their lives for years and a lot of people didn't even realise they weren't born as women. The idea that they should suddenly be forced to use a men's toilet after 30 years using the women's is daft. And dangerous (for them). They are not the issue.

Brefugee, I’m sorry but they are the issue. I know you are trying to be fair and reasonable. But there is no fair or reasonable way of removing a basic and long-accepted right from women because some male people want it for themselves. If male people use a women’s single-sex facility, it is no longer single-sex.

Incidentally, male people often delude themselves that they ‘pass’ as women, when in reality women recognise them but are embarrassed or frightened to challenge them. That is not a pretend fear, but the justifiable fear of male aggression.

Trans activism is very much the Trumpism of the left imo.

Interesting and convincing. I hadn’t looked at it that way before, but I agree.

They are similar in that they are culture wars, and both stoked on social media by some people who don’t really care about the well-being of people on either side of the argument and just enjoy a ruck.

I have to say I am amazed by the “Brexiteers are the real victims here” arguments. I did have sympathy with some of the reasons people voted for Brexit, but I have seen the stress it has inflicted on a close relative, and EU friends, and I have never yet heard sympathy or a “sorry, we didn’t mean it to hit people like that” from anyone who voted Brexit. So I guess they are happy with what it means. So how can a Brexiteer be a victim? They literally won the vote, they got what they wanted.

Yes, sadly it's a man problem, as is ensuring that there are safe spaces for transwomen to pee without using women's facilities.

I have a lovely cousin with a learning disability who has experienced bullying, like a lot of people with disabilities. He'd be safer in the ladies, despite being built like a tank.

that's awful and it is a "man problem" which i believe is up to society in general and men in particular to tackle. He presumably doesn't feel ok using the accessible toilet? I could understand that too.

I don't want to share single sex spaces with men, no matter how they identify or how vulnerable they are.

I have a lovely cousin with a learning disability who has experienced bullying, like a lot of people with disabilities. He'd be safer in the ladies, despite being built like a tank.

But he uses the men's.

One major difference is that Labour has actually established a firm position whereas Corbyn refused to come out as leave or remain as he himself was anti-EU but his party wasn’t. Unfortunately it is the wrong position. They are losing women’s support left and right, so to say.

Well there we go- in b&w article 1 “in brotherhood”.

Even the fucking UN human rights is male-centric.

"Human Rights" are defined in treaty, in the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights.

The UN Declaration says in Article 1:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2 says:

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status..

Starting with the Yogyakarta Conference, the Trans lobby has sought to add Gender (identity) to that list.

Article 7 says:

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

and Article 18 says:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

..."Everyone" in this context is a specific legal term. It means "Everyone."

And Article 19:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

A20:

Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association. No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

and Article 25, unfortunately, as a result of lobbying, says that everyone has a right to paid holidays. Which is really not a human right. But it's in there. So it is.

I have skimmed some of this thread but did we get answer as to what sort of Dr Cascascascas is?
Or should that be Dr Who?
Maybe identifies as a (medical) Dr so actually IS one?

we just have to get used to expressions like "women and birthing parents" and be happy that we are being included and inclusive.

But I am not included in statements like that. When you use the term 'women and birthing parents' you introduce the concept of identity as somehow relevant to the process of giving birth and suggest that you are only talking to the teeny tiny minority of people who conflate their body with their identity. For the vast majority of women, their identity has got fuck all to do with the process of pushing a baby out of your twat. In the above statement I cannot see myself as a woman and neither do I see myself as a birthing parent. In reality you'd be hard pushed to be less inclusive.

[quote Cascascascas]@WarriorN

How rude. I am doctor.
You are clearly arrogant.[/quote]
If you are a medical Dr who does not know the very basics about the human body then you are incompetent and need to be struck off.

If it were genuinely difficult to tell which people were female nobody would bother stopping women voting or driving cars or graduating from university or going to school.

The calibre of TRAs on this site seems to be decreasing, from an already lowly position

Foetuses follow the same blueprint (which is not to say that they are all female like your earlier suggestion). When the Y chromosome 'kicks in' the nipples have already been formed.
Evolutionary speaking, there is no point in them being erased in males because it serves no evolutionary purpose to change the blueprint.

But as a Doctor you will already know this.

And we all have an appendix in our gut, Cascas, but that doesn't mean we can digest cellulose.