What is this called?

OP, I don't know if you've seen this but it's very handy - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Re: a pp comment about 'inciting violence', you'll struggle to find any 'terfs' or GC feminists who have done that (unless you count ribbons or stickers as a hate crime). On the other side, you'll find things like this - www.terfisaslur.com

Maybe not, I can but hope they recognise that being GC is an acceptable belief (Forstater, 2021)

Ah, but "the watchers" will complain and MNHQ will delete

I fully expect my post to be deleted. Too honest.

If you have male genitals, you are a man, so use the male toilets.

If you have had male genital removal, you are still a man, so campaign for a seperate gender space.

If you are a natal born woman, who identifies as male, campaign for a seperate gender space.

Just like Women had to do, to get single SEX spaces.

Wtf should Women give up our hard fought for, single sex spaces?

Is there a legal definition of transphobia? Or is it whatever a judge decides of"evidence" and opinion at the time?

What am I?

A terf. Welcome to terfville. Most of us hold similar views to your own regarding women are women, transwomen are transwomen and will never be female, but they shouldn't be discriminated against. That doesnt mean they get to use women only spaces though. That's not discrimination its keeping women safe.

The revoltingly euphemistic “bottom surgery” is irrelevant. Castration, penectomy and the creation of a fistula does not turn a man into a woman.
And, as a doctor, I question the surgical colleagues who perform this - I regard them in the same light as orthopods who amputate healthy legs for people with limb dysphoria. They are trespassing in territory best left to psychiatrists, who should help the patients to come to terms with their beliefs without needing mutilation to “validate” it.
“Gender” is meaningless stereotypes anyway and has nothing to do with sex. If men want to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make them female, nor does it gain them entry to women’s single sex spaces. They need to accept the reality of themselves as gender nonconforming men. Nobody has a problem with that, any more than we mind women wearing trousers.

The thing is, it's not just about changing rooms. Logically, you would have to apply the same "bottom surgery" admission criterion to women's health, DV and other services, sports, awards, membership organisations, and shortlists. So you would in effect still be redefining women to include some biological males which makes it impossible to then defend any of our sex based rights. Should a biological male be woman of the year? I think not.

Well, those are my views pretty much. And stripped down to the basics it’s “sex matters”. That belief alone would make you a ‘terf’ in the minds of those that oppose that view. There’s not much you can do about that. Unless you are all for self ID and all that goes with it, you are a terf.

I've been called a terf for saying what you've said here.

I agree there should be third spaces but TW don't want them because it makes them feel sad if they can't be in women's spaces.

Really don’t care about the Labour Party 😂, or any other organisations.

I was just trying to highlight that to people who use the phrase "terf" you would definitely be one, and a transphobe.

Those of us who are called terfs tend to describe ourselves as gender critical. Because our attitude is that gender stereotypes are not important to follow and everyone should present as they wish. Sex cannot be changed though, and people should use facilities appropriate to their sex.

Obviously inciting hatred leading to violent threats or actual violence is both immoral and illegal, I have never seen gender critical feminists do such a thing.

Threats of violence against gender critical feminists are all too common.

Beautifully articulated as always Datun 💪

I agree with most of what you’ve written OP, but I struggle with the surgery point as I don’t think it makes the individual any less of a threat (if they were already one) and also because it’s just utterly miserable, people butchering their bodies for validation or affirmation or whatever. I wish they’d find some peace in their bodies without putting themselves through that (and still stay in the appropriate spaces for their sexed bodies).

Is gender atheist a thing? I don’t believe in this new religion that worships the individual as a god.

What am I?

Normal, sensible, rational human being. So yeah, you're a raging terf.

Many people want to divide trans women into those with and those without surgery. Which I understand. I disagree, but I understand. That's where it all started, after all.

Personally, I don't think this is about the men who want to be women, it's about the women whose spaces they want to use, and therefore whose presence in those spaces is crucial to that dynamic. And remember, these will mostly be vulnerable women.

Many women do not want to be around men when they're vulnerable, irrespective of their genital status. Surgery matters nothing if you are triggered by a male presence.

Nor does it matter in sport. Nor does it matter if you want to be counselled in a rape refuge, or if someone is handling your breasts during a mammogram, or intimate care for your elderly mother.

This isn't about granting special privileges to men who demand them. This is about women. And their rights to female only spaces and services. God knows, there aren't many. And those where sex segregation is necessary, are usually due to the fact that the woman is in a very vulnerable position.

This is about women.

But even your stance, which does make a distinction between those men with surgery, and those without, you'd still be considered horribly transphobic.

It's all or nothing, I'm afraid.

OP, your views are completely reasonable.

And they will also get you called TERF and transphobe (and your husband will also be called a TERF and a transphobe).

Join the club

A razor toothed harpy.. .. joking.

It makes you a rational person. Someone who can under nuance and biology.

I think it's a great question. The easiest way to describe my position would be "what some people call TERF / transphobia". I don't think gender critical means much to most people, and I'm not sure I'd fit that description 100%. About 90, maybe. Feminist can mean anything. I've only really managed to summarise my position as believing women need more protection than transactivism can accommodate. That's a lot less than I think, but it's the nub of the most important conversations about this, I think.

I think it's problematic to allow access to spaces based on whether they've had surgery. A few years ago I would be handwringing about which males would be "allowed" in but there's no good solution other than separate third spaces.

On what basis does "full surgery" make someone born, grown and brought up male less of a threat to women?

Precisely. I think people harm themselves when they have healthy organs removed for cosmetic purposes. That’s sad. But it doesn’t give male people the right to enter women’s spaces, or take our jobs or sports medals. It’s irrelevant.