Radio 4 Thought for the Day

For a start because that messes up inclusion all round: it does nothing to remove barriers or improve things for anyone, it just builds them up high between different parties within the group.

No problem timeisnotaline , sometimes it is good to know what is unusual when you are stuck in an autistic bubble.

It is a bit like me saying, my autistic child can not sit still and can not shut up so should be allowed to stomp round the classroom shouting while the teacher is trying to teach rather than trying to find a compromise that allows adaptions for the autistic child whilst not disrupting the other 29 and making the teacher's life hell.

@BlackeyedSusan sorry, no issue - i think lots of parents do that, it’s just far less common on this part of the site so I did notice . I remember my school friend saying she had breakfast in bed regularly and I was blown away.

Is it worth putting in a complaint to the BBC perhaps? About letting political think taking over tftd?
And perhaps demanding an equal and opposite tftd, from, ooh, Posie perhaps??

@timeisnotaline taking breakfast: meeting the needs of their disability.
best way to get them to school without being a small bundle of rage because I quite like their teachers.

"If you disagree with me, then I just haven't explained to you yet in small enough words what I want you to do, think and say."

Where do you even start with that kind of arrogance?

She doesn't seem to have learned much herself in the last 3 years. But she seems to have got the little knowledge she has from her (adult female) trans child.

It was unbelievably patronising. Similar to the way Rowan Moore (architecture writer in the Observer) writes about his trans child, with a total barrier up to any possibility that people could have a legitimately conflicting view, because “my baby”.

Her tone of voice sounded like was talking to a Cbeebies audience. This was a personal agenda that went beyond her religious duties.

People are using Thought for the Day to disseminate political messages.

I've found some threads about when Janner-Klausner was previously on thought for the day talking about her non-binary child. It was 3 years ago when the GRA consultation was open.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3389089-r4-thought-for-today

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3389092-r4-thought-for-the-day

this is a somewhat general response - but i find the characterisation of others as "misguided" a frustrating thing in public debate. "I bet you've never met a trans person" comes up so often on twitter etc in response to any position deviating from "TMAM, TWAW, NBAV, TRAHR" and it's such patronising inaccurate BS.

I agree, Nell.

Also, the problem is, the mtf transitioners I have known were very clearly autogynaephiles. I didn't realise that at the time (because I didn't know what AGP was) and I spent a long time - years, even - trying to reconcile the whole 'born in the wrong body' narrative with the people I knew. The moment I first heard about AGP (thanks to oblique references on this board) and looked into it, everything fell into place. It made far, far more sense in relation to the people I knew than the explanation of 'a woman trapped in a man's body', which I had genuinely sought to believe in as some sort of scientific fact up until that point.

Now, obviously I don't believe that AGP accounts for all transitioners. I really don't.

But it does mean that I take a dim view of the 'but if you only knew some lovely trans people' argument. I liked, cared about and in some ways admired the mtf transitioners I knew. But knowing what I know, I sure as hell wouldn't share a communal changing room with them.

My experience is anecdotal and shouldn't be used as a basis for making laws. Likewise, the fact that an MP (naming no names) has a lovely transgirl in her constituency or a rabbi has a delightful trans child should also not be used as a basis for lawmaking.

She hadn't put much thought into her "Thought for the Day". Used Kathleen Stock's predicament as a stepping stone to her own one-sided opinions. If she's done the tiniest bit of research, she would have found out that "cis" is not a term to get the public on your side. She should educated herself....

But did you hear Justin Webb later referring to Doc Stock being 'falsely' accused of transphobia? They will be after him...

For those who want to listen, it's at 1hr 49 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0010gx9

No mention at all of the possibility that you might know the ideological terms and disagree with them

Yes, I thought that, too!

But nevertheless, I found myself thinking that at least here was a moderate opinion, asking for dialogue, rather than #nodebate. Shows how deep we are in this morass.

And I was thinking about how we need to find a way to talk about the general issue of transgender activist ideology (gender extremist ideology) without it being seen as an attack on individual transgender people.

It seems to me that the difference between transactivist extremist ideology and, for example, gay liberation - say the equal marraiage debate - is that gay liberationists have never asked ME, as a stright woman, to change the way I talk about my sexuality, nor have they required that I NOT talk about my sexuality. Similarly, the equal marriage activism was to include same sex marriage, not erase heterosexual marriage.

I suppose it’s understandable that she is emotionally involved and wants everyone to accept her child into wrong sex spaces based on “gender identity”.
But it’s very wrong of her to ignore the fact that allowing her child in also means allowing in any man who wants entry and claims to be trans.

There are consequences to a blanket “be kind” policy, all of them detrimental to women. It is beyond arrogant to dismiss GC feminists as ignorant bigots - we are the only ones speaking up for safeguarding of women and girls. And we are far better informed on the issues than she appears to be.

The rabbi has a HUGE agenda and should not be given a platform on R4 to promote it.

Oh we've listened and understood alright. How many of us are here because we did what they demanded and ''educated ourselves''?

This feels up there with the ''trfs are only trfs because the men are telling them what to say and do'' argument. Tripe, women can think for ourselves. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we don't understand.

The difference is, we're taking women's needs and safety into consideration, whereas they are not. I probably wouldn't be on this ''side'' if I too viewed women and girls as mere support humans, props to validate boys and men 🤷

Maybe one of these people should sit down with the women sexually assaulted by men in prison. Look them in the eye and tell them that they just ''don't understand properly''

Neither #BeKind nor 'educate yourself because you're being unwittingly bigoted' are helpful ways to move forward.

And it's ridiculous to suggest that a university professor who has written a whole book about this issue is ill-informed and uneducated. If she wants to criticise Prof Stock's 'beliefs' she should at least have read her book first.

@BlackeyedSusan you take your teens breakfast??