Joan Smith on Woman's Hour today (Tuesday 12/10)

Bloody hell that cuts to the jugular.

Especially the comment about cbbc.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4373828-14th-October-Nolan-Investigates-podcast-Stonewall

Tim Davie speaks on this trailer. Well worth a listen - it’s the Nolan investigates stonewall thing, discussed on a separate thread

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09yjp0d

Very good points winter.

I'm similarly nervous in my own profession; though some of my social media silence is more about the fact that I can learn more from acquaintances in the field as mole 🐁 🕵️‍♀️ I'm v interested to watch attitudes among aquaintances.

WH transwidow clip

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06xvbsc

To be fair to JG, they did host a few weeks of nervous debates and did also have a transwidow on and a piece about that. There were women talking about their children from both sides - the woman who described rodg and the way it developed was far more convincing imo.

In retrospect it was all v nervous and I expect for good reason. All the pay stuff was going on around the same time. I believe her daughter completely disagrees with her on trans stuff.

However it was a drop in the ocean compared to how EB is tackling the "in the news" stuff, in the moment. It's relevant and as a pp said, more important as an ongoing current thread constantly tracking what's going on rather than stand alone niche topics that are easily missed or misunderstood by the vast majority of listeners who haven't a clue about any of this.

For the phrase "only women have cervixes" to be an issue, discussed on wh, where they've repeatedly talked about cervical cancer would have made a lot of women take note. And think wtf.

I watched the documentary about Jimmy Savile and was struck by the similarity of the BBC's actions. They recruited him because they needed to find a way to appeal to younger viewers and, because he was so valuable to them, turned a blind eye to his behaviour. It seems that the BBC are again seeking a younger audience and have decided that pushing gender identity ideology is a way to do it. Once again, women and children are the casualties.

This thread is a little bit of hope in a shocking week. Your comments are really interesting Littlesilverwatch. Like so many I've complained - I recall complaining about the repeated misuse of the Equality Act protected characteristics by journalists and receiving a patronising response completely ignoring that the problem of BBC journalists effectively telling lies about the law.

Imagine where we might be if the BBC and the rest of the media had not been captured by all the trans lobby groups.....

@nauticant It saddens me too, editorially they've lost the plot in so many ways.

I do think Davie is making a badly-needed difference though.

The message in the second response from the BBC, you can go higher but it's now done and you'll be wasting your time, stopped me in my tracks and I gave up. It was a year or two back.

In a way they won. But what they achieved was turning me from a supporter into an opponent of the BBC, in its incarnation of being an self-serving organisation, that I view with a degree of contempt.

@nauticant Keep at it, you want to get it to the executive complaints unit where there's more chance of a grown up seeing it, then beyond that it's Ofcom for broadcast complaints.

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/recent-ecu

The editorial teams really, really don't want that to happen though and will try to fob you off.

My experience of making a complaint to the BBC Littlesilverwatch was an initial brush off response and when I escalated, I received a gaslighting response that suggested I didn't understand what was going on in the broadcast I'd heard. The latter response suggested that for a second escalation I'd need new arguments because my thoroughly detailed initial statement and follow up had now been dealt with. The message was very clear: anything else you send will be disregarded.

The fact that the BBC would choose to prioritise indulging in identity politics over impartiality when they might be facing a double existential threat from Internet streaming and government support rapidly disappearing has been astonishing.

Anita Rani and her Fluffy Friday edition of WH can do one.

@nauticant I agree, the shift is definitely coming from Tim Davie as the new DG.

I'm an ex BBC journalist, still in touch with staffers there, and apparently the complete nonsense the BBC had been publishing and broadcasting is one of the top reasons for complaints.

They were simply ignoring the BBC's charter responsibilities over impartiality.

It's always worth complaining when they are inaccurate and partial, and don't take the first response as the end of the matter if you're unhappy - escalate it. A record is kept of all complaints.

EB seems to have had an epiphany since she interviewed the trans woman whose report resulted in the Olympic committee changing the rules for trans people. She is also a Newsnight presenter, and I wonder if she has ties with the producers who did the investigation into the Tavistock.

I'd be happy if Anita Rani bogged off back to annoying sheep on Countryfile. She comes across as completely out of her depth and inappropriate. I still haven't got over her commenting on Paris Lees' looks during that interview - a complete non sequitur in the context of the interview. Would she suddenly pronounce that any natal female guest looked beautiful in an item that had nothing to do with that person's beauty? Of course not. It would be incredibly sexist to do so.

I've just listened to this on Sounds and came on here to see if there was a thread, thanks OP! I was really struck by the calm and measured tone, in which there was no panic or trying to change the subject when the definition of woman vs transwoman was raised, it was just treated as a serious and relevant point like any other. I found that so refreshing. Good for Emma.

It was very good. Joan spelling out that misogyny is sex based and she isn't in favour of making it a specific hate crime, since it will immediately be appropriated by TRAs and used against women.

Emma Barnett is very good and asks the tough questions.

I thought it was a really good discussion. Emma allowed & encouraged both women to explain their position on misogyny as a hate crime. Interesting that Joan was against. I agree with her take I think, though I really hated the way the Scottish government made insulting a cross dressing man a hate crime, but not sexist abuse of a woman wearing the same clothes!

When JS mentioned the issue of the definition of woman and how that's important if you are going to have hatred of women as a hate crime category, Jane garvey would have tried to move on quick, or even say 'of course many people really disagree with that and think it's transohibic', but Emma just let her make the point cos she had every right to make it.

When I think back to listening in 2018 when the gra consultation was on, and how cagey and uncomfortable the presenters were about the issue, and how odd the whole thing was, this was so different. It was like WH were saying 'of course we discuss this, why wouldn't we discuss this?' Changes are afoot.

I think Garvey did her big work on the pay claim stuff and has to be lauded for that. She really laid out her position strongly and possibly her future job prospects.
When she and Glover talked about the trans issue they both said how impossible it was to get interviewees to be in the same place. A bit wispy washy I agree but from their asides on Fortunately, it’s clear they both had to fight to make and keep their careers

I have discovered Times radio, after being a lifelong R4 listener (I remember it being the Home service!)

Yes, defund the b**y BBC, unless they talk with honesty about the Gender Ideology issue. I don't trust them any more, about ANYTHING. If they can lie about something this huge, they have lost my trust.

I stopped listening to Fortunately a long time ago. Both Garvey and Glover are far less interesting than any woman I know and their middle-class smalltalk was deadly. Plus all they ever seemed to do was puff fellow BBC people.

Women deserved much better from all involved. Yes, Nauticant, I was wondering whether it was the result of Tim Davie realising that the BBC's totally pro-trans, headfirst dive into BLM was driving people away.

I write as a someone who has had Radio 4 as the background to my life since childhood. Thought I could never live without it. Now, as I get into the car and turn on the radio and get yet another woke programme (my bingo moment was this one www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00100cr
in which a young mixed heritage guy talks to a posh anglophone gay male Iraqi author about his "exquisite portrayal" of a MTF trans character caught up among Syrian refugees on Lesbos) I go straight to Radio 3.

I don't want to go back to an all-white, achingly middle class Radio 4, but it really has become a woke parody of its former self.

That's interesting nauticant. I didn't know about that