Legal rights of gender dysphoric yr 8 boy to be placed in a girls dorm

And the last sentence quoted above is not my view. Trans people can be excluded but as the EHRC Guidance IMHO correctly states, 'exceptional' reasons are required.

But with straight up answers.

Robin doesn't do straight up answers

Why then the gushing approval when it comes to trying to pass yourself off as the opposite sex to that which you are? Why is this intention to deceive not just tolerated but celebrated?

'Passing' means hiding your true nature, getting people to believe you are something you are not. It is perpetrating a fraud. So when to talk about how well someone passes you mean how well they perpetrate a fraud. How well the deceive others.

The general view is represented by the recent BBC 'Womanhood' programme

No, the views of six virtue signalling, desperate for exposure z list celebrities does not reflect "womanhood" for all of us.

I think that the myth of not being able to tell is harmful.

It is. And it shows that 'trans acceptance' isn't about accepting trans people for who they are, it's about deception. It's about trying to convince other people that someone is something they are not. That a male person is a woman.

They are so unable to accept that something will give them away.

Yes. The very fact of their presence in that situation gives them away.

Women don’t need to take a middle of the road line of thought about women and girls rights and safeguarding.

Quite. What does compromise, indicated by a middle of the road approach, look like?

Just a bit of a risk? For what??? To validate who, exactly?

datun

That has such a chilling effect. Everytime I have read it . Hence I actually want Robin to clarify. Not with ambiguity. But with straight up answers.

That a transitioned male feels they have every right to ignore the discomfort caused by trauma of a female because they, and others who may or may not be truthful, think they ‘pass’ is indicative of just what that male thinks of others. ie. Nothing.

They are so unable to accept that something will give them away. Every. time. I think that the myth of not being able to tell is harmful. And if it takes that woman or girl 30-60 minutes to understand that she had been yet again tricked by a male and they are not female, the retraumatisation is real.

But it seems, it doesn’t matter reading this.

In fact we must take a very strong clear line that we do not sacrifice any of our rights and safeguards.

At 13 I was more than capable of expressing my feelings to have sex with a much older musician and fuck off on tour with him as his adoring little sex toy.

Thank fuck the adults knew to safeguard me.

I've just re-read that damning review of Robin's book, and yes, I think that's exactly what Robin is saying. It sounds on a par with this paragraph about the legal exemptions designed to exclude transwomen as rape counsellors.

The book notes :

"C]are should be taken to note the word “might”. For example, the situation may well depend on how well the trans person “passes”: if it is not possible to tell by looking at / listening to a trans woman that she is transgender then it is far less likely that the genuine occupational requirement would apply as compared with, say, a trans woman who does not pass as well and in a number of respects still looks male."

The reviewer 'The Legal Feminist' responds

The idea that “passing” is something that can or should ever be judged as a condition for employment is fraught with difficulty and embarrassment, both for anyone called upon to make such an invidious judgement, and for the trans person concerned. But even if that difficulty could be overcome, it doesn’t seem fanciful to think that the ability of a rape victim to detect when she is in the presence of a man may be heightened: her perception might not coincide with that of the manager. But more seriously than either of those objections, it should be self-evident that a rape victim who wishes to speak to a female counsellor should be granted that wish without question, and without any threat of subterfuge. It is difficult to imagine a more heartless message to convey to a rape victim than “The person you are sitting with, alone in a room, talking about your experience of rape, will either be a woman, or else a man who passes so well as female that you won’t be able to tell.”

According to Robin, there doesn't appear to be any situation, ever, where females can be without the presence of males.

the desire for a trans equivalent of s28 becomes all the more horrific the more plain it is made.

Please explain this @RobinMoiraWhite.

Did you actually intend to state that to wish for clear and robust safeguarding measures based on sex is the equivalent of s28?

In what way? Exactly and specifically, what way?

As ever, don't hold your breath.

There is no trans equivalent of section 28 because transgenderism isn't a sexual orientation.

I got the impression that Robin was suggesting that preventing boys who say they want to be girls from sleeping in girls' dorms is 'a trans equivalent' of section 28. So preventing boys who identify as transgender from accessing girls' single sex spaces is a 'trans equivalent' of not allowing schools to teach about homosexuality. But I'm awaiting clarification on that one from Robin.

Which is how you can often tell when someone trying to misinform is posting. The logic gets torturous.

Indeed.

As in

the desire for a trans equivalent of s28 becomes all the more horrific the more plain it is made.

There is no trans equivalent of section 28 because transgenderism isn't a sexual orientation.

Many if us followed Maya's case very closely. We know what the ruling was, which parts annoyed us, which parts we rejoiced in. We can acknowledge both the apparent losses and the apparent wins.

And yet still the findings are reflected back at us through a prism of fractious, disingenuous, disbelief.

Anyone who hasn't yet done so should read the book review in the link above. You don't have to know about the law, clarity of logic is easily read. Which is how you can often tell when someone trying to misinform is posting. The logic gets torturous.

I would remove my dd from this school.

Interesting that the people arguing for this year 8 biological male to sleep in the same dorm as the girls also lack even the most basic knowledge of safeguarding….

I run residential trips (pre-covid) and am in charge of writing risk assessments. Part of that is to identify all possible risk situations and put in measures to prevent that.

Can I repeat, all possible risk situations.

In this instance, I'd request to see a copy, then request a meeting with the adult in charge of writing it.
I'm getting it would have more holes than a colander.

the desire for a trans equivalent of s28 becomes all the more horrific the more plain it is made.

Can you explain what you mean by this Robin? I'm struggling to see how this relates to the subject of this thread, which is about the legal issues involved when a boy is allowed to share a dormitory with girls on a school trip without the girls' parents being consulted.

What is the connection between a historic law forbidding the promotion of homosexuality and a situation in which parents of girls are not told that their daughters will be sleeping in a mixed sex dormitory on a school trip?

What’s in it for women, RobinMoiraWhite?

I mean, many of us know why many women apparently support the inclusion of male people in women only spaces, services and set asides. It’s often fuelled by blissful ignorance, thinking that “transwoman” automatically means a same-sex attracted male with acute gender dysphoria who commits to all the surgery etc possible in order to blend in with women as fully as possible and live a quiet life.

And in the case of virtually all women, it’s the end result of that dratted female socialisation, drummed into us from birth and backed up by the weight of thousands of years of patriarchy, ie male domination and the female need to do whatever it takes to survive. That female socialisation which you had the great privilege of not being subjected to, and consequently no experience of how deep and toxic (and usually unconscious) it is.

So we know why there are apparently a lot of women eager to do what we’ve been taught from infancy we should do to survive: be kind, put the feelings and wishes of others (especially male others) first, abnegate ourselves. Squeeze ourselves into the smallest possible space, bend ourselves to accommodate those male people whose wishes, unlike ours, are entitled to be validated and supported.

But my question to you is: what do women actually get out of this? What do we gain for ourselves, apart from the sense that we’re doing what good, nice, kind, virtuous, self sacrificing women ought to do, behaving as men have always told us we ought to behave, and women who wanted to survive have told us too, which we hope will keep us safe in this misogynistic world we have the misfortune to inhabit? What do we get for us as individuals, as human beings in our own right?

How does all this opening up the things that have been set aside for us specifically as a way of redressing the injustices and abuses that we suffer and have suffered at the hands of the male sex to any members of the male sex who wish to have access to them as long as those male people utter the magic words that they now identify as women or girls - how does that benefit us?

How does it enhance our lives, increase our still relatively limited opportunities, give us increased protection from the endemic male VAWG we still live with? How does it help us find solidarity, solace and inspiration with each other, with other women who may have experienced similar things to us, who have suffered the same damaging effects of female socialisation and endured the same challenges of navigating our way through the world in a female body, the world designed by and for those with a male body?

How does it help us talk to each other, find our own voice, take up our own place in the world, take up the space that is owing to us, that has been stolen from us by men for generation upon generation, that is still being stolen from us now? When our spaces now include male people with an entirely different history, who are accustomed to their voices being heard in a way ours aren’t, who are more than happy to speak over us and silence us just as so many other male people have done for so long?

How does it help us feel good about ourselves as women in a world where being female has been consistently devalued throughout time and space, in every culture worldwide, where we have been and live with the legacy of being always the second sex, when even the word “woman” itself no longer belongs to us exclusively, but must be shared with those members of the first sex who wish to claim it, must be emptied of its original meaning to become instead a container for a male idea of what a woman is rather than the material reality of what we are?

How does any of that help or benefit us in any way?

What’s in it for us, Robin?